Bit of a RANT: Putting the cart before the horse

Luis Caffesse

Luis Caffesse

Admin
Why is it so many people expect they can figure out budgets before they know what they want to shoot?
I can't tell you how many times I've been approached with jobs from people who are essentially looking to sub them out to me - generally it goes something like this:

"Hey, I've got a video that needs to be shot for [fill in the blank] Client. They need it soon. Think you could get it done for X dollars?"

"Well, I don't know - what do they need?"

"You know, it's corporate stuff. Interviews and things"

"Okay, how long is it? What's it about? Where is it? How many locations? What format? What delivery? What's the deadline?"

"Look, I just need to know what it would take to get it done. Once we get the budget approved we can work all that out"


HUH????
Am I crazy?
Is the rest of the world working this way?

I wind up feeling like the people calling me think I'm just being difficult because they want a 'straight answer' - and I can't give them one because I don't have enough information. Often times I'm told "I just need something to tell the client" - yeah, well, the problem with that is then the client is going to expect me to stick to what I said.

I'm feeling like Will Ferrel in Zoolander - everyone is taking crazy pills.
(if you can't tell...this just happened this morning...again)
 
What's even crazier is that you can lose a job by quoting TOO LOW. A lot of people like to keep their corporate budgets a certain size, so they'll take the more expensive quote so they can justify the size of their budgets to the higher ups.
 
I feel your pain. Usually when I end up in the sort of conversation I just tell them to let me know all of the details after they figure it out. I gotta figure that any client who doesn't know what they want, would just be too big a pain in the arse for me to deal with. Let the next schmuck try to guess what's going on.
 
Jeremy Ordan said:
then you say "I thought you were talking per day"
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Hahahahahhaha
Awesome.
wookiethumb.gif
 
It's the same, all over.

Although on this end, it's more popular, to start the project without a script. Which means without a schedule. Which means that you wind up just feeling your way into whatever it will cost, as you go along.

The practice of committing $millions to a story that everyone agrees isn't near ready-to-shoot, has always been just baffling to me.

Of course, we're talking about people who (to extend the metaphor) couldn't tell the difference between a cart, and a horse, if both were standing in front of them.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
"Hey, I've got a video that needs to be shot for [fill in the blank] Client. They need it soon. Think you could get it done for X dollars?"
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tell them that you know a guy in georgia who will do it for that. i'm cheap and can turn any project into a comedic video (sometimes intentionally).
 
You're not off base at all, Luis. Of course it's impossible to give any sort of accurate forecast.

So I usually tell them this: "Well, how much does a house cost?" And they'll stumble and stammer and eventually I'll bail 'em out by saying "are we talking a mobile home? A mansion? Two bedrooms, or five? 1,000 square feet? 10,000 square feet? Made of marble, or stucco?"

Sometimes that sinks in and they realize "hmmm.... guess I do actually have to have some sort of clue before I can ask what it's gonna cost."

But then again, many times the answer will just be "Huh? Just tell me what it'll cost." At that point I say "without knowing the specifics, the standard rate is $1,000 to $2,000 per finished minute. Obviously the price could go up or down based on the specifics, but without knowing the specifics, that's the best ballpark I can give you."
 
We'd like a mobile mansion, expandable from 1,000 to 10,000 square feet, made of stucco over marble is the sort of answer to that question, that I have become used to hearing...
 
I just did a website quote like this.. "We want to you make us a website, how much will it cost?" ... "well, umm.. what do you want on this website?..."



I figure in most cases, if you are asked for a "bid" (and that's what it ends up beeing in reality) on an unspecified project, the safest answer is to quote for the worst case scenario.


Worst that can happen is they say "no thanks" (though I got that today from a client, and I'm kinda kicking myself on this one).


- Mikko
 
How about the people who post on Craigslist, asking "I want a website like Myspace. How much will that cost? I only have 200 to pay, but you'll get credit for making it." Oooh!! Where do I sign up?!
 
mikkowilson said:
Worst that can happen is they say "no thanks" (though I got that today from a client, and I'm kinda kicking myself on this one).
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Actually, in my experience, you did the right thing. A client like that is nothing but trouble, he'll cost you far more in time and aggravation than what he pays you.

In fact, as with all such cases, I've come to see such things as blessings in disguise. They're doing you a favor. Not too long ago, we held an audition. A couple of actors we were counting on didn't show up. One had a lame excuse, the other never even bothered with one. The director was mad as heck, cursing "flaky actors". I instead told him - you should buy those flaky guys a beer. They just did you a huuuuuge favor. They identified themselves as flakes. Imagine if they came to the audition, and instead flaked during the shooting? It has happened on some productions I've witnessed. Then you have a real problem.

Same here - the client just qualified himself/herself as costing you more than he/she's paying you. So you avoided a disaster. You did the right thing, you were lucky. Remember: nobody is irreplacable, and there are always more fish in the ocean. Buy yourself a beer!
 
Once in a while I offer a prospective client an "f-you" bid, ie bidding high enough on a job I don't really want, that the client is unlikely to accept the bid, and that for the money, well, I'd be willing to do it.

Of course, every so often, they call your bluff. And you have to keep reminding yourself that, well, you *did* figure the job would be worth taking, for the money...
 
OldCorpse said:
Imagine if they came to the audition, and instead flaked during the shooting? It has happened on some productions I've witnessed. Then you have a real problem.

Same here - the client just qualified himself/herself as costing you more than he/she's paying you. So you avoided a disaster. You did the right thing, you were lucky. Remember: nobody is irreplacable, and there are always more fish in the ocean. Buy yourself a beer!
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I had that happen to me. One of the actors never even bother to show up to the shoot. He emailed me a few days before the audition and said 'I can't make the audition, but don't worry. I'll spend a lot of time reading the script so that I'll be ready for the shoot..." So I emailed him a few times the week of the shoot (shot on a Fri, Sat, and Sun) and called a few times... no phone call back, not emails back, nothing... Another one of the actors left the audition early because I (as the director) basically wasn't letting him have control of the audition. He said he would come back but never did. He calls me the day before the shoot and says "OK, where's the shoot and what time should I be there?" I get pretty upset with him. "Well, it's only for copy and credit anyway, right?", he says. F**king p***k... I'm spending about 10k and that's his attitude??? I then told him I was paying $100 and he quickly changed his attitude. Oh well, what are you gonna do? For my next project, I'm only using SAG actors and I'll be going through their agents...
 
My answer is usually "somewhere between $1 and $3000/second depending on the specifics of what you want, how soon you want it , and how complex it is." People have been asking me the same questions about CGI since the early 90s, my answer is the same.

People don't seem to understand that you can get an hour of Stickman animation quality for the same price of a second of Finding Nemo quality.
 
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