I have a HV20 and I'll show you my wobbling... (I guess this is it) :)

so red, i think, unprecedentedly, gave us very pre-production prototype footage to look at. it's not fair or useful poking too hard at this footage, especially since probably very many potential customers of this camera (unlike other cameras in the past) read internet message boards, and not-well-thought-out comments could actually materially effect this company's short-term business. it's like putting up a sign in front of someone's under-construction store before it opens with the message "so these things suck about this store..." not cool.

i noticed warping in the PROTOTYPE footage from nab on just ONE shot, and asked about it on the red forum. obviously i hadnt' had to freeze-frame anytyhing to see it. the degree of warping was more than on the footage posted to the net. but so what? these guys arent' stupid. if there are problems with this camera for use in commercial film flows THEN IT WILL BE FOUND VERY FAST after release. red is targetted in part to that industry, so it's a good bet that any prototype issues will be addressed. certainly this camera is already being evaluated by someone in each use category in industry, and i'm sure theyr'e finding and fixing issues.

when they produce new cameras: panasonic and sony and dalsa and arri and panavision go through the same steps. the difference is that they dont have the guts to release prototype footage before they're done.
 
First off, it's an interesting sidenote that at some point in its development the red camera had a wobble too.
But I think we should concentrate on the subject...the HV20.
I don't agree that it is unusable at any pro level. I use it on a tripod (or merlin) at events and I am very satisfied. It just sucks that it wobbles in handheld motion situations....really sucks.
 
klas persson said:
What I would like to see is a side by side PAL/NTSC comparison. I've just ordered a pal one and will be trying it out as I get it and send it back if it's as bad as some say...

I know the NTSC does the wobbles too but it doesn't seem like it does it as much.

AloysiusK, where are you from? NTSC or PAL land?!!

I figure if someone have access to both versions it would be cool to just strap them together and go out shooting. Handheld, steadycam you name it.
Click to expand...
Same PAL zone here, same concern. This test would rock indeed! Anyone?
 
Ok, firstly. I didn't say RED sucks.. I just pointed out the very same effect. Which is VERY relevant for this thread and by no means meant as a pointer at RED. Which thereby shouldn't be considered uncool. That camera shows almost unnoticeable effect of this phenomena. Barry seems unable to see it at all, mind you. But sheer, no. It is that stretching jello effect. Or was, as apparently it doesn't have it anymore anyhow, as they've said themselves in this thread... No more Red talk then. I am the first to say that it seems like an amazing camera. But to be afraid that people wouldn't buy it because of this is a bit far stretched, don't you think? It's aimed at pros, not novices who can't make a decision for themselves.
 
Let's change subject?

Jim has been noticed on subject about this particular CMOS issue. Jarred as well. I can myself testify (I have no contact with Canon but I wouldn't say the same about the RED support to their customer and under development!... :happy:) -- so, let them work!

My next 128 pages feature will be shot with both cams: RED #111 & #647 serial numbers and a HV20 -- I just don't know yet if it shall be a PAL or a NTSC unit... Can you help here? :)
 
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klas persson said:
Ok, firstly. I didn't say RED sucks.. I just pointed out the very same effect. Which is VERY relevant for this thread and by no means meant as a pointer at RED. Which thereby shouldn't be considered uncool. That camera shows almost unnoticeable effect of this phenomena. Barry seems unable to see it at all, mind you. But sheer, no. It is that stretching jello effect. Or was, as apparently it doesn't have it anymore anyhow, as they've said themselves in this thread... No more Red talk then. I am the first to say that it seems like an amazing camera. But to be afraid that people wouldn't buy it because of this is a bit far stretched, don't you think? It's aimed at pros, not novices who can't make a decision for themselves.
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hi klas didn't mean to sound like i directed those comments at you! meant to make the comments general and not directed at anyone. sorry that i sounded this way!
 
So... the wobble has been fixed on the RED? That must mean the problem is possible to solve. Can someone tell Canon that? :D
 
At this price point Canon may not want to address this issue as the fix may be cost prohibitive. The Red group obviously knew that this would be a concern, and at that price point a lot more is expected from the camera than the HV20.


Norbert said:
So... the wobble has been fixed on the RED? That must mean the problem is possible to solve. Can someone tell Canon that? :D
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klas persson said:
Second. PJ didn't sit at the passanger seat with a small camcorderversion of RED in his hand shooting those scenes either, now did he? I don't even understand how you can make that comparison... Of course PJ used pro stabalizing heli mounts for the shoot. Probably with the help of theese guys. Else it would've shaked like hell anyway, even without the wobbles. I'd be surprised to see the HV20 woobling in those circumstances too. As it probably goes as smooth as a steadycam, which seems to do the work...
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Understood. Anyway, going directly to HV20 realm, here goes some info (as available as possible) on the HV20 footage test from that particular helicopter setup circumstances:

«Just to comment some on things brought up in Stu's thread---the shooting conditions of the helicopter footage are quite realistic and not at all unreasonable. The camera was on a lap-held Spiderbrace»

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=478&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
 
Hi all, first time posting here.
It seems like some hv20 footages suffer from greater degree of wobble. I try to reproduce the phenomenon and I could not get the same kind. I mean I do see vertical lines leaning forward and backward when i pan fast, but no matter how hard I shake I don't get that much wobble. Actually by the time you have wobble your picture is too busy and you are distracted by the motion itself and wobble doesn't stand out too much - which I think is why canon thinks rolling shutter is passable

IMO it might be a problem with the hardware and you should contact canon for it.

Because it should be affected by how fast picture moves in pixels in the frame, not necessarily how shaky or telephoto your camera is. As long as the picture's motion is slower than the refresh rate of shutter - which I think is faster than 1/2000 sec judging from shutter speed limit - you shouldn't see that much of anomaly. And the fast motion of the picture should hide the effect of rolling shutter to some degree.

Again I could be wrong, but that helicopter shake, this sunset shot, and the in car footage don't seem normal even for a rolling shutter sensor camera.
 
I did. And I should probably clarify what I meant.

First, I wouldn't consider the HV20 an "A" camera; with so many quality cameras available so cheaply I don't see why any professional would limit themselves with the limitations that the HV20 imposes (especially regarding audio input, etc). The HV20 garnered a lot of excitement because of its size -- it could go places and get shots that we'd never use a bigger "A" camera for. Sticking off a monopod to get a wheel shot of a car racing down the freeway, or strapped to a helmet and jumping out of an airplane, a close-up explosion cam, all sorts of scenarios.

But that's exactly the circumstances where the wobble can ruin the footage. Simply put, in any situation where the cam is subject to vibration, I no longer trust the HV20. I think it's completely unsuitable for those uses.

So that leaves it really only suited for tripod/dolly/jib work. And I'd much, much, much rather be using a full-featured camera with real focus and zoom and exposure control and real audio connections for any of that work, and I dare say that in any professional shooting circumstances, so would everyone else.

So where does that leave the HV20 suited for? I can't think of a place where it's well suited. I wouldn't use it to shoot a handheld car interview shot, which is a place where its size would be perfect for. I wouldn't use it for a crash-cam or a helmet-cam or a point-of-view-cam; the wobble'd destroy those shots.

For micro-level filmmakers the HV20 retains its overwhelming advantages. For people who simply can't afford anything else, the HV20 is in a class by itself. For home movie use, which is the market it was designed for and marketed for, it's perfectly adequate. But for professional use (meaning someone who's getting paid for the shot, whose livelihood depends on the shot being successfully captured) I don't see a place where I'd trust it. Hence I said it's unsuitable for any level of professional work.

Others will disagree, I'm sure, but I'd like to hear what types of shots they'd be willing to trust their job to with it, and where they'd find it preferable over *any* professional-level camera (defined as an XHA1 or above).
 
Well, Emanuel is a professional and he's buying several of them... Different opinions.

Barry_Green said:
I don't see why any professional would limit themselves with the limitations that the HV20 imposes (especially regarding audio input, etc).
Click to expand...

Isn't there audio input? Maybe unbalanced audio input but with the right adaptor, can't we have balanced sound quality?
 
Gordon Prince said:
Isn't there audio input? Maybe unbalanced audio input but with the right adaptor, can't we have balanced sound quality?
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True statement....after all...it is a "consumer' cam....I would have expected there to be a lot of limitations in a consumer cam.
 
I'll post in this thread as well...

Click my banner if you want to check out the short film I just made entirely with the HV20. There are hand held shots, tripod shots, dolly shots, etc...

Most of the outdoor shots were done on a very windy day as you can see by the blowing trees.

Keep in mind, this is the first time I have ever used this camera to shoot a short film.

I think it is a godsend for the poor independent filmmaker like myself. ;)

Cheers,

Mike
 
"First, I wouldn't consider the HV20 an "A" camera"
I wouldn’t consider a HVX an "A" either.
But out of the 2, I would consider the HV20 hdmi at 900 bucks well suited to be a better choice
 
Barry,
I own a Sony V1U. I noticed you were curious if that camera has the same issues that the canon does because of CMOS technology. I'm doing a test shoot in a couple weeks with both the V1U and the HV20. I could do a camera shoot out. Are you still interested? What would you like me to do?

I'm doing this test shoot to find out what can and can't be done with the HV20. I'm shooting a film after the test shoot. I would like to use the HV20 underwater. The handycam water enclosure is only $150. That's very cheap comparison to other options. Anyway I'll report back once the shoot is done.

-D
 
I think no one can say if something can or can't be used for a professional work. The real question is would any professional creator ever choose to use HV20 for their work? I'm leaning toward 'probably yes,' especially when its small size+ 24p make sense.
 
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