New sony cam follows our beloved HVX

[harddrive]

harddrive: I don't see why you couldn't transfer all the P2 data to a folder on a laptop and then burn a couple DVDs of the footage to give to your customers. Or buy a hard drive (as your name implies) for $100, put it into your price, and just give it to them at the end of the shoot.

OK, fair questions, but you are assuming a particular type of shoot, and those assumptions don't hold for me, and I suspect a good few others.

Just imagine a scenario with a major broadcaster say, and a big media event, maybe going on for several days. Much of the coverage is OB based, but the broadcaster may deploy a number of ENG crews. They may be required to film interviews, reporter stand ups, vox pops or whatever, and many throughout the day. Each segment may only last a couple of minutes, but the client may wish to put a clip on air as soon as possible. Apart from the undesirability of having to carry a laptop around a busy stadium, (in addition to everything else) the time delay of having to boot it up, copy the files, then burn the DVD before the material can be taken for playout would be totally unacceptable. Similar considerations apply to, say, news in many cases. I'm not saying what you describe wouldn't work, but frankly just ejecting a tape and handing to runner is a great deal simpler........

It seems like everyone against P2 always has a workflow issue of some sort. They'll throw up a roadblock to the whole process. I don't see how the SxS cards will change this for you - you will still have tons of data to hand to your customers - are you planning on giving them the SxS cards?

You have to realise that whilst P2 may suit your workflow, others have different workflows, and for them P2 throws up it's own roadblocks.

As regards the second question, then I suppose the answer is yes, but there is more to it than that. Carrying on with the scenario above, then with a DV25 codec 4 GB cards are likely to be more than big enough - 16 minutes run time. In fact, 2 GB cards would probably do here - most interviews of this type probably don't last more than 8 minutes.

Which comes back to what was said earlier. Each P2 card is quite expensive in itself, regardless of the amount of memory. That makes small capacity cards very expensive per GB relative to large capacity ones - if available. The same economics don't hold for SD, CF and I'm expecting SxS - CF is available in a very wide range of capacities, with the price being largely proportionate to size.

Your workflow may be well suited with a single (albeit expensive) 32GB card. The workflow I described would be far better suited with 16 2 GB ones. With CF, and I'm assuming SxS as well, that would be similar pricing to one single larger card. With P2 it won't be, even if a wide range of sizes was made.

And what about HD? I don't want to go into the whole codec debate, except that here these 2GB cards will still record about 5-6 minutes of XDCAM (may still be enough?), but now only 2 minutes of DVCProHD. Not nearly enough, and 24p is not likely to be acceptable for sport or news.

Taormina - if P2 works as is for you now, then that's fine. But please accept that others who aren't happy with it may have valid reasons, not just negativity. And for future ranges of cameras, can I just leave you with the question that why should they be P2, not SxS based? What advantage does P2 give over SxS in media terms for the future, all else equal? I wonder how things would be different had Panasonic been the one to first announce the SxS concept, as P2 MkII........?

 

[harddrive]

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?

For you, absolutely none at all, and nobody has said there was. For current HVX owners, that enables an easier input to modern laptops and possibly lower cost memory, without a change of camera. No problem at all.

But as you quoted TimLe saying: "The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera.". For everybody who hasn't got an HVX, but may be looking to buy a new camera soon, then why should we have to worry about adaptors? Surely just being able to plug the SxS card straight into camera is far more elegant? It may not be the decidng factor in which camera to buy, but surely it is significant?

And for any manufacturer, and not just of cameras, it's the people who are looking to buy soon, not those who have already bought, who most need influencing!

 

[alpi69]

Hi,

I haven't read the full thread here but the last couple talking about the price and complexity of the card and that that is no longer a necessity. First the ptice has taken a totaly leap frog here with the intro of the soon to be delivered 16 GB card in May at $900. Secondly if you design you system for today, it will only be good for today. Keep in mind that you need around 30% above your topspeede requirement to word for the data rate, and that will give you real time transfer. That is what the systems can do today. There are and always will be systems that push the edge, perhaps next year the transfer path could double in band with so instaed of 1 GB a minute it can be 2 GB per minute. The P2 card will be there and able to do this. At a transfer of 640 Mbps, it will be a while before the systems catch up with the speed of the P2 card.

The P2 card was designed with the entire workflow in mind.

Hope that helps you all understand our decision.

Best,

Jan

Sure, Jan, and I again want to say I am overly impressed and happy with the performance of my P2 camera. And I got 3 partner-productions to buy a HVX so we could work closer together - and we do and it works beautifully (although they struggle with their FCP vs my Edius system).

But looking at this new SONY cam and seeing many clients of mine investing into XDcam there is one major flaw in P2: pricing. I agree with Barry there will be an Expresscard-Adapter if need be, so that´s not an issue to me. But I see my investment losing. When I share footage my workflow is in trouble, because the others are suddenly in XDCam. Why? Because they want to use $ 40 per disk not $400, let alone 900. So after having invested in P2 I now anyway have to invest in a XDCam drive to get my material into the market.
I understand Panasonic is a company that looks at profit, but IMO SONY plays it smarter by not tying our budgets in memory. P2 could have been the way to go and Panasonic should have read the market when there was an uproar about the pricing. Had they started dropping the prices gradually (10% per month or so) and ended up where the price is now they would have shown a tendency. Now the tendency was unclear, especially since Panasnic could not fulfill their roadmap with P2 capacities.
So all I am saying: Pana read the market. You totally understood our needs with the HVX which does all we ask for (ok, var. framerates at 1080p and a good LCD are missing). But please help us create a P2 market. It is 5 minutes before 12 if you want to P2 to succeed longterm in Europe.

 

[David Jimerson]

David, I don't need to imagine. I trialled the SD P2 camera well before the HVX200 came out, and became well aware of the benefits you describe. (Plus lower power consumption than disc cameras.) But my main clients demand the ability for me to be able to hand over media immediately after shooting for them to take away for immediate use, and that was where P2 came unstuck. The P2 store was not an answer, and I got fed up with spending more time tracking cards down than filming. So hence we've stayed with tape for the time being, augmented with a Firestore now, to at least retain in some situations some of the tapeless features I liked about P2.

Those comments may apply much less to operations which are more self contained (ie one man!), I appreciate that, but I'm sure a lot of readers WILL be able to identify with them.

Far from knocking P2 per se, I WANT the benefits of solid state for exactly the reasons you describe, but free of the restrictions that P2 currently imposes. And a move to SxS would go a long way towards making that possible. A card of 32GB costing $2,000 (say) may be just what some people want. For many other people 8 4GB cards costing $200 each may be far more useful. For the reasons above, a range of card sizes and prices is more viable with SxS (or CF, SD etc) than P2. And if SxS is generally far cheaper per GB than P2 can be, surely that must be a good thing?

I appreciate people with current commercial interests in P2 can hardly publicly agree with what such as myself as TimLe are saying, but I can only hope they are taking it in in private. And the arguments about the actual physical memory should not be confused with wider points about individual cameras, workflow, codecs etc.

Nice (undeserved) swipe, but you're talking about something completely different from what I was describing. I was addressing John Trent's comments only, regarding the affordability of the cards. As I said above, an HVX and two 16GB cards -- heck, two 32GB cards if they come in at $1300 street -- still puts you at or under the price of the HD200, with all the benefits of the HVX.

But there are workarounds to the issue you speak of. You can arrange for your client to rent cards to which you shoot and hand them over (which they may be willing to do once you explain the benefits the HVX has over all the other HDV cams). You can also deliver on hard drive. Every situation is different, but you're working with data and data alone, so the options are actually a lot more abundant and elegant than merely limiting yourself to the idea of handing over a tape at the end of the day.

Which is not to say that there's a solution to every possible set of circumstances. There are those for whom it's just not the right camera or the right workflow, and that's really as it should be -- and as it is with every camera/workflow ever devised.

 

[taormina]

Yeah Harddrive, but why invent these wacky scenarios. Do you shoot ENG in a stadium, yes or no? If yes, then you have a point.

I'd rather hear....."I once had to shoot in a stadium" than "what if ..." and then some ultra rare scenario.

Be honest about the situations you've run into where you would need a tape...if not with me then with yourself.

 

[harddrive]

Nice (undeserved) swipe, but .......

David, no swipe was intended, and I apologise if that was the way it came across. I only intended to make clear that I was not talking theoretically, but had practical experience of P2, and was part of a unanimous collective decision that it was not the way forward for us until a cheap card was available. If SxS provides that path, then so be it.

Taormina. That scenario was far from "wacky". I don't want to generalise about my own personal work, every day tends to be different, but that scenario was close to one that I have experienced in the recent past, and intended to reflect why many people have a problem with P2. If you don't find it realistic, that's your right.

 

[TedRR]

Only speaking from my experience, but the XDcam stuff is not considered as Broadcast as our DVCPro is in our market. We've had excellent reception and there have been far more HVX purchases here. I don't know of much XDcam penetration here.

 

[tnle2]

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?

I buy a whole handful of express cards, a couple p2-express adapters that fit the express cards NICELY, and I still get my data at the end of the project.

Travis,

The problem is Panasonic will never do this. They will never make this adapter because if they did it would be P2 suicide. Think about it. If they made an adapter that let you use ExpressCards, then why would even buy their expensive P2 cards anymore? If you don't buy P2 cards, other people won't either. If no one buys P2 then isn't the format effectively dead? It makes no sense for Panasonic to enable people to use something other than their P2 cards. Simple.

So the question current HVX owners need to ask themselves is do they want to stay locked into this P2 format or should they get out of Dodge as fast as they can to get the most money for their gear. Right now this isn't an urgent issue but if Canon and/or JVC adopts ExpressCards, the tide could turn real fast. If you see that happening I would suggest you consider getting out of Dodge.

 

[David Jimerson]

There's a lot more to a P2 card than a simple PCMCIA form factor. There's a lot of internal engineering and firmware which allow it to do all it does. It's not like you can just stick an Express Card into a P2 shell and start shooting.

As for current HVX owners, they're "locked" into the P2 format if they wish to continue shooting with the HVX, which is a much bigger question. The HVX has a lot more going for it than you appear to give it credit for. If Canon and/or JVC produce cameras which use Express Cards but don't offer 100 Mb intraframe 4:2:2, variable frame rates, the Panasonic Cine-Gamma curves, etc., which is what draws most people to the camera (and NOT the P2 cards), then you're pretty much throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't shoot HDV because I don't want to shoot 25 Mb Long-GOP. It doesn't matter if it's on tape or on a card -- it's still 25 Mb Long-GOP -- and generally 4:2:0.

No one expects P2 to last forever.

 

[tnle2]

There's a lot more to a P2 card than a simple PCMCIA form factor. There's a lot of internal engineering and firmware which allow it to do all it does. It's not like you can just stick an Express Card into a P2 shell and start shooting.

Yes, that's why they are so expensive! But ExpressCards do the same thing, only simpler and cheaper. Simpler and cheaper is always good in my book. That's why you can just stick an ExpressCard into a P2 shell. Heck, Barry Green was the one that suggested that to Panasonic! Are you saying he's wrong?

As for current HVX owners, they're "locked" into the P2 format if they wish to continue shooting with the HVX, which is a much bigger question. The HVX has a lot more going for it than you appear to give it credit for. If Canon and/or JVC produce cameras which use Express Cards but don't offer 100 Mb intraframe 4:2:2, variable frame rates, the Panasonic Cine-Gamma curves, etc., which is what draws most people to the camera (and NOT the P2 cards), then you're pretty much throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm sure there will always be something about Panasonic's products that someone will like. I don't doubt that. They make good stuff, but they just approach things a different way. But it's clear the other companies are listening. Sony's latest camera has a larger chip, manual lens and variable frame rates. That's huge man! There's no way Canon or JVC can compete unless they match that or raise the bar even higher. Yes, it's still long GOP and I know people will poo-poo that, but IMO intraframe versus long GOP is really just a preference. Quality is not an issue like some people make it out to be, at least not for probably 95% of the applications. Discovery HD allows 100% XDCAM-HD 35 Mbps acquistion. The HVX despite its "mojo", 4:2:2, intraframe, etc. is only approved for 15% acquistion. Doesn't that tell you something?

By the way, XDCAM-HD is not HDV nor is only 25 Mbps CBR.

 

[David Jimerson]

That's why you can just stick an ExpressCard into a P2 shell. Heck, Barry Green was the one that suggested that to Panasonic! Are you saying he's wrong?

What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I know what Barry suggested.

By the way, XDCAM-HD is not HDV nor is only 25 Mbps CBR.

Didn't mention XDCAM; I said only Canon and JVC. But while XDCAM isn't 1/4 the data rate of DVCPRO HD, it's still only 1/3, long-GOP, and 4:2:0. Yes, it does make a difference. As a matter of "preference," I prefer not to have macroblocks all over my high-motion areas, I prefer not to have horizontal color spikes when I greenscreen and color-correct, and I prefer to do frame-accurate editing.

Why do people keep bringing up Discovery HD? I don't give a rip what their broadcast standards are; I've seen uprezzed DVX footage on DHD, and it looked like crap, so I don't exactly use them as a bellwether. It's a red herring anyway, because better is better no matter what their standards are. And DVCPRO HD simply looks better than either HDV or XDCAM, especially after a generation or three. This I have seen with my own eyes.

So, it isn't the P2 which draws people to the camera. The P2 is nice. The P2 is a great workflow. But that's not the primary reason why the HVX rocks. If it were, Focus Enhancements wouldn't have sold thousands of FS-100s.

 

[tnle2]

What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I know what Barry suggested.

It doesn't really matter because Panasonic will never make this adapter unless they want to kill off P2 themselves.

But while XDCAM isn't 1/4 the data rate of DVCPRO HD, it's still only 1/3, long-GOP, and 4:2:0. Yes, it does make a difference. As a matter of "preference," I prefer not to have macroblocks all over my high-motion areas, I prefer not to have horizontal color spikes when I greenscreen and color-correct, and I prefer to do frame-accurate editing.

Well I prefer an affordable, space-efficient codec that doesn't require three times the storage space to shoot, edit and archive. Is that not important too? Different strokes for different folks. And are you implying that all long GOP formats (including XDCAM-HD 35Mbps VBR) are prone to macroblocks, color spikes and you can't frame-accurate edit? Man, I guess all those tens of thousands of professional shooters who use XDCAM-HD have really low standards.

Why do people keep bringing up Discovery HD? I don't give a rip what their broadcast standards are; I've seen uprezzed DVX footage on DHD, and it looked like crap, so I don't exactly use them as a bellwether.

I bring it up because people here do the same thing. Barry Green is always saying how WETA Digital chose the HVX over XDCAM-HD. He lists "Fox, Australia's ABC, India's NDTV, Raycom, Media General, Cox, and all the other mass adopters of P2" and yet I can't bring up Discovery HD? Why? I can't bring up something unless it's favorable to the HVX? Well that's not very fair, is it?

 

[David Jimerson]

Long-GOP is what it is. 4:2:0 color space is what it is. These are mathematical facts.

But, as you say, you make trade-offs according to your priorities. My overriding priority is what the picture looks like, and I'll adjust everything else before I compromise on that. And I'm not the only one who thinks so; Ikegami just announecd their own tapeless solution -- intraframe 4:2:2, based on the DNxHD codec -- and cited everything I did as reasons why they did so, so it isn't just a Panasonic thing.

The point, of course, is that many, many people who use the HVX agree with me, and use it precisely because of the reasons I stated, and aren't likely to abandon it just because you think P2 is dead.

I don't care if you bring up Discovery HD; I'm simply saying that just because it (XDCAM or HDV) is acceptable to DHD, it doesn't automatically follow that it's not STILL inferior to DVCPROHD.

But if you want to make similar objections to Barry mentioning Fox, etc., please, go right ahead. It's pretty much apples and oranges, though, because he's using those examples to make a different point, which is that lot of people have invested in P2, so it's thriving and far from "dead," as opposed to saying it's a better format because of it. I never said XDCAM was dead.

In any case, to the point about Panasonic never making the adapter because it would kill sales, I don't think that necessarily follows. No price point has been released on the SxS cards as of yet, and the 16GB ExpressCards (Transcend, for example) I've seen out there will list for more than the 16GB P2 cards will, so what's the advantage to ExpressCards, exactly? I mean, who knows what'll happen over time, but why do people automatically assume that EC will put P2 out of business? Just because of the laptop thing?

And what's everyone going to say if the SxS cards debut at substantially higher prices than P2 -- which isn't exactly unlikely, considering the specs to which it'll have to be built? P2 is maturing and the prices are dropping exponentially -- with a lot of lead time over SxS.

But ya know, as others have said, a little healthy competition benefits us all, so if there's a price war, it can only be good for us.

I just happen to agree with Barry that the reports of the demise of P2 are widely exaggerated.

 

[tnle2]

I am not arguing that 4:2:0 is better or even as good as 4:2:2. Like you said, mathematical facts. Heck even Sony has a 4:2:2 version of XDCAM now.

But my point is that for the overwhelming majority of applications, the difference does not matter. Discovery HD is just one example. I hear this a lot that the picture is the overriding priority and people are always so fixated by the picture. Sure, it's important, but honestly there is no significant difference between 4:2:2 as implement in DVCPRO-HD and 4:2:0 for the applications that a typical DVXUser will do.

People here are independent filmmakers. They don't have much money. They just want to make a movie. The sad thing is a lot of them get brainwashed into thinking that they have to have 4:2:2 or somehow their movie will suck. It's not true. Your movie could suck because the camerawork is bad, the audio is bad, the lighting is bad, the writing is bad, or any number of things but it's not going to suck because you used long GOP 4:2:0 and not 4:2:2 intraframe. That's the truth and anyone who says otherwise is doing a great disservice to people who don't have a lot of money.

Anyhow, ExpressCards will be expensive at first like you said. I agree there. But c'mon man, Lexar, Sandisk, Sony, and Transcend will all be making them. Hell maybe even Simpletech and A-Data or B-Data or whatever those dang off-brand Newegg memory guys will too. ExpressCards are the new standard for laptops. They're already making new laptops with them. It's all just plain normal computer stuff. We all know how computer stuff takes off and gets really cheap. I pay more for a tank of gas than a 2 GB USB flash drive! The potential is there. P2 does not have that potential. Even Barry Green recognizes the potential of ExpressCards otherwise he wouldn't say Panasonic would be stupid for not thinking of supporting ExpressCards.

And yes, that adapter would kill P2 sales. Why the heck would you buy an P2 card if Panasonic is enabling you to use a different memory card? And if they lower the price of P2 so ExpressCards are not attractive, then what's the point of making that ExpressCard to P2 adapter? See the catch-22? There is no way they will make this adapter. Panasonic is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you see them supporting ExpressCards, P2 will be dead.

 

[taormina]

Damn...why sit here and plug Sony. Just go buy it!!!! Why beat it to death on a Panny board. If I wanted a Sony I could've had a sony....no regrets here.

 

[arrestthisman]

Harddrive: Why don't you just offload to a very large drive in the field, mirror it for yourself if needed, and hand THAT to your clients?

 

[tnle2]

Damn...why sit here and plug Sony. Just go buy it!!!! Why beat it to death on a Panny board. If I wanted a Sony I could've had a sony....no regrets here.

Last time I checked long GOP 4:2:0 and ExpressCards were not proprietary to Sony.

My point for all the DVXusers is check out all the options (Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Canon, your Nokia cell phone camera, etc.), make a decision for yourself and don't get brainwashed by marketing hype "mojo", 4:2:2, intraframe=good, interframe=devil. People here don't have a lot of money. So spend your money wisely and get the best bang for your buck. An OConnor fluid head would be a good investment =)

Also last time I checked DVXUser was a "community for filmmaking." Is filmmaking restricted to Panasonic equipment?

 

[taormina]

No, it's not restricted just to Panny...but it is a predominantly Panny board. And who told you people here don't have alot of money? What I don't care for (personally) is having a decent thread turn into some jackoff deal where someone is trying to convince someone els of the merits of some other technology.

It took me probably 3 months to choose the HVX after some exhaustive research. I wasn't brainwashed - I feel I bought the best camera I could for the money I spent....the HVX. I could've spent much more, but there were definitely diminishing returns on anything much more expensive. I paid cash for all my stuff including 2 additional computers, NLEs, lights, you name it. I probably spent $30K last month.

I could've had a red or an SI2k but didn't want to wait. It's all about most bang for the buck, and right now, HVX holds the title - period.

 

[tnle2]

No, it's not restricted just to Panny...but it is a predominantly Panny board. And who told you people here don't have alot of money? What I don't care for (personally) is having a decent thread turn into some jackoff deal where someone is trying to convince someone els of the merits of some other technology.

HELLO?? The subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX!! What else am I suppose to be talking about? I don't get it dude. If you don't like this thread then move along. But the mods haven't killed it because we're politely discussing facts for and against this competing technolgy. You got a problem with facts?

Well sure there will always be someone like you who has 30G's to drop on equipment. Good for you. But give me a break. People here are building Steadicams out of PVC pipe and improvising lights from the Home Depot. You think those people have money? You think independent filmmakers in general have money? Then why don't they pay the talent and crew then?!

 

[bluetuned]

One question I have is...who is to say that Sony doesn't twist it as to require some form of proprietary express card? Sony has a long and rich history of requiring you to use proprietary components in their products. Will this be different?