Choosing camera for new school video production suite

A

agold4me

Member
My high school (small private) recently appropriated money to purchase equipment in order to create a "good video production capability" for various school use (students and faculty). However, none of the current faculty have much experience in video/film, and the whole project is being pushed through by the photography teacher. Known as a student fairly knowledgeable of the field, I was approached by said teacher to create a "wish list" of sorts for the equipment purchasing. Although I do not know the precise amount of money we have to work with, I do know it is neither enormous nor very small, but certainly enough to purchase a $3-4000 camera.

My question to everyone here is this: Is the Canon XH-A1 a good choice as a camera, and why? If so, what reasons are there to prefer it over other cameras (mostly the DVX100)?

Also, if anyone has additional suggestions feel free to add them.

Thanks
Max
 
What sort of use will the camera be in?
Are you looking for studio cameras, field cameras that will go out with students, or one good camera for use in classroom/studio for production?

And at what level is the course? - Will this be the student's first time with a camera, or have they been submitting to YouTube for years?

- Mikko
 
i'd say, if you want a good SD camera, go with the dvx. if you want a HD camera, go with the xh a1.

with the a1 you can also downconvert to SD if you don't want HD. so it has the best of both worlds.

be aware that with the a1, you won't be able to burn copies of your HD footage to dvd's unless you have an hd dvd burner and hd dvd players to play them on.
 
Hmmm... to be honest I think the XH-A1 might be a tad overkill. Not much, but the learning curve might just be one or two notches too high.
If I'd had to buy a camera for your school, I'd buy either two HV20s or one, maybe two Sony FX7s. These cameras come with fine automated control and still offer enough for more eager students and teachers to knock themselves out.

I'm proposing this but I actually don't have any clue as to what your teacher or your school wants to DO with them, but seeing what we had at our university (two FX1s, and a couple of the zeiss-miniDVs from sony) and what the students were supposed to do with them, I have to say FX1 and XHA1 definately would've been overkill.
So, what are the plans?

Finally, maybe someone might disagree with me, and wants to teach me something new along the way.
 
FX1 -- (or maybe FX7)

The A1 is too complicated, and the HV20 is too simple (and yet too hard to directly control)

The FX1 would give the best synthesis of great image combined with simplicity (I haven't much experience with the FX7)

It makes little sense to buy a new SD camera any longer -- the DVX, PD150, VX2000 are all great cameras, but the newer HD cameras surpass them in SD (while being HD capable).
 
I agree with Polle. For a school environment, you don't want to blow all your money on a single expensive camera for several students. It's unlikely that your school will want the added hassel and expenses of working with HD. I wouldn't recommend the HV20 because it lacks the manual control for students to learn effectively. Get several of the older DVX models (original or A) since those give good manual control at a relatively affordable price point.

And it's not just the camera. Are they going to be learning how to gather sound? How to light? Edit? Certainly it's better to have several older cameras and spend the rest of the fund on other equipments (don't forget tripods!).
 
If I remember correctly, the guy responsible for buying new gear at the university has chosen to invest in two JVC everio HD7s, these are the ones with harddisks in them. I can see the advantage in that: You don't have to worry about clueless students constantly asking if you have tapes in stock (it's not a filmschool) and there's no risk in mixing different brands of tapes with different lubricants, saving maintenance. And you can always tell them that they need to unload their footage to a computer first, so there won't be any checking out just for the sake of using the camcorder as a tapedeck, thus leaving more potential time for other students.
Downside is maybe the format: AVHCD, so editing might a bit more challenging as opposed to DV downconverted from HDV.

Maybe a couple of Sony HDR-HC7s then? We could spew camera models all day, but if we're not sure what they are going to be used for, we could end up recommending those Mustek camcorders off eBay. :)
 
The camera will be used for a variety of projects, likely including documentary of school events, creation of promos for activities (in-school, not broadcast), student film work, and POSSIBLY a video production "course" (probably more of an independent study because the school isn't going to be hiring a video instructor). While the camera will technically be open for all to use, I don't anticipate every grubby fingered idiot trying to get all over it, and the school is very small to begin with (less than 350 students in the high school). In fact, I would say most of the people who would use it would have some degree of video experience to start with, so I don't really consider the "high" learning curve (it really doesn't have to be, relatively speaking) of the XH-A1 a huge disadvantage. Also, because of the student-film aspect, I'd like to have 24p capability on the camera, after all I'm going to be using whatever camera we get quite a bit myself.
 
Hmmm... I still stand by my original proposal of the models: one, maybe two FX7s or two or three HDR-HC7s. Nothing against Canon in general (my A1 should arrive tomorrow or next week), but in this case it'll be money not well spent.
 
agold4me said:
The camera will be used for a variety of projects, likely including documentary of school events, creation of promos for activities (in-school, not broadcast), student film work, and POSSIBLY a video production "course" (probably more of an independent study because the school isn't going to be hiring a video instructor). While the camera will technically be open for all to use, I don't anticipate every grubby fingered idiot trying to get all over it, and the school is very small to begin with (less than 350 students in the high school). In fact, I would say most of the people who would use it would have some degree of video experience to start with, so I don't really consider the "high" learning curve (it really doesn't have to be, relatively speaking) of the XH-A1 a huge disadvantage. Also, because of the student-film aspect, I'd like to have 24p capability on the camera, after all I'm going to be using whatever camera we get quite a bit myself.
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Unless you're talking about getting used DVX's (perhaps this would be an advantage - getting two), my personal rec'd would be the XH-A1. Learning curve is a curious reason NOT to get the camera for a school - after all, shouldn't they be "learning"?
 
Duct Tape Films said:
Unless you're talking about getting used DVX's (perhaps this would be an advantage - getting two), my personal rec'd would be the XH-A1. Learning curve is a curious reason NOT to get the camera for school - after all, shouldn't they be "learning"?
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Well, it's not a film school, apparently, and I think the possibilities of the A1 might get in the way of producing the desired content. It's fun for the original poster, the photography teacher and a few other kids, but my feeling is that they'd be a bit more productive with two HV20s or HDR-HC7s (you can then have multiple mini-groups working on different projects) than if they'd only buy the one A1.
 
Unless users have been given some kind of decent tutorial on the A1, they're not going to have the greatest results.

The A1 is not for run & gun -- and that's more what you'll need for the application you've described

The FX1's auto mode is superior to the A1's.
 
BARYE said:
Unless users have been given some kind of decent tutorial on the A1, they're not going to have the greatest results.

The A1 is not for run & gun -- and that's more what you'll need for the application you've described

The FX1's auto mode is superior to the A1's.
Click to expand...

Just curious, how is the XHA1 not for run and gun?
 
agold4me said:
Just curious, how is the XHA1 not for run and gun?
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even the most die hard evangelists for the A1 would likely concede that it does a poor job -- it produces a grainy, poor quality image -- when left in full auto

This camera requires much more hands on knowledge than your average student user is going to have.

It has too many options, and they're quite often not intuitive.
 
And the thing is, once you get the A1 are you really gonna be shooting HD? If you are, how are you going to display it? Does the school have a decent system for editing HD or are you going to have to buy one? It's stuff like this that doesn't make the A1 a cost effective choice. It's not about the learning curve, it's about whether it does what you want for a price you can afford. I still say go for used DVX(s) and other equipments like sound.
 
Polle said:
Well, it's not a film school, apparently, and I think the possibilities of the A1 might get in the way of producing the desired content. It's fun for the original poster, the photography teacher and a few other kids, but my feeling is that they'd be a bit more productive with two HV20s or HDR-HC7s (you can then have multiple mini-groups working on different projects) than if they'd only buy the one A1.
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I am in 100% agreement that in a school scenario you are invariably going to run into issues of kids waiting until the last minute, and by that simple fact alone, it would probably be better to have multiple packages (in my mind the best bet would be 2-3 used DVX packages for them to check out) than to get one single A1. That said, the argument that dumbing down the camera, any camera they'd likely have access to, and having them shoot in automatic mode is going to be good for their education in any way, personally misses the point of having a class at all, be it at a high school level, a film school, or even a kid's filmmaker camp.

In this arena, the learning is much more important than the results. It is much better to develop good habits from the start than to try to unlearn bad habits. At a younger age, they are far more likely to retain what they have been taught, so why not push them to push themselves? A good choir teacher does that, a good high school football coach does that, a good art teacher does that - and I fully expect that if the original poster is going through the effort of asking those in the industry and aspiring to be in the industry our thoughts on what gear to get, they're not kidding around when it comes to the level of challenge they might pose to their students. The expectation of results from these students should certainly take into account their level or ability, but not the amount of challenge posed to them. That accomplishes nothing but furthering the easy "A" notion that classes like film classes are usually met with on that level.
 
That's why I proposed the FX1 or FX7, since those cater for both groups very well. And they look the part too.
 
I must preface this by saying I own the A1 and am producing great work with it.

That being said, HD is not needed for a highschool. There is no output that is going to be available for their HD work, and why go through all the different forms of converting down to SD (before or after editing).

I would definitely say go towards two dvx's. If that costs too much, I would also say to go for PD170's. Even without the 24p it is still a great camera. Either of those Cameras look great out of the box, and have plenty of room to grow with learning custom controls as students get better.

Plus with the SD its no hassle editing. One could even plug in a camera edit on imovie export on idvd, all during a single class, and it will look great.

There is no reason to bog people down with extra steps, in a situation where they are first trying this whole filmmaking thing. Leave the process as easy as possible so they still have the opportunity to explore and create. It's about inspiring not scaring people out.
 
Not to sound presumptuous, but I don't think the A1 has that much of a learning curve. I am a student and the A1 is my first truly professional camera.

The day I got it, I put it in full manual and used it for the whole day. That's all I needed. I'm still not completely savvy with the custom presets but I have a good knowledge on what each customization does. I did read the manual before it came though, and knew all of the vocabulary necessary for comprehension.

If this is a high school class, everybody should easily be able to understand everything.


Plus with the SD its no hassle editing. One could even plug in a camera edit on imovie export on idvd, all during a single class, and it will look great.

There is no reason to bog people down with extra steps, in a situation where they are first trying this whole filmmaking thing. Leave the process as easy as possible so they still have the opportunity to explore and create. It's about inspiring not scaring people out.
Click to expand...

Only extra step for the A1 is a simple menu change so you can down convert to SD on import. I believe the gear should be the least intimidating part of film making. They won't be scared of an A1, they will be anxious.
 
Absolutely right, pay more just to downconvert to SD...

Once again, HD isn't needed for highschool students just learning. There is no reason to buy A1's. Sure in a few years HD will be a more viable format. But by then, with how fast the technology is changing, the A1 will probably no longer be a contender. Like I said, I own the A1, and am making some beautiful work with it. But in their case i think they should buy for what they need now.

I am not here to get into the debate of the A1 vs. the DVX (in my case the A1 came out on top), but everyone has different needs. At $600 dollars less (A1 rebate included) the DVX is still a fan-f'in-tastic camera, and is still a standard in independent filmmaking. And an extra 600 could definitely help out in the sound or lighting department which are as equally important (if not more) as what camera they are using.

I am in the same boat as you Bballer, I'm a student and my first 'real' cam is the A1. But it's our situation and our experience that made the A1 the right cam.
But I am unable to say that just because I enjoy the camera that it is the right choice for everyone.
 
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