Who's planning to buy an HV20?

rapsucks said:
Barry says that a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera.
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Not necessarily. What I said was that 3 chips have always been better, for good reasons; I dont' think we've ever had a case of a one-chip camera being "better" or delivering better images than a comparable 3-chip camera. But as you point out, there is something different going on here: 1 CMOS vs. three CCDs. That's a difference, perhaps a very significant difference.

But I do suspect that three CMOS with a prism would be better than one bayer-pattern CMOS.

I also made those statements before Barlow pointed out that the chip is actually 3-megapixel, bayered down to 2 megapixels. I thought initially that it was a 1920x1080 CMOS, and bayered down from there.

In the end, none of that matters, as long as the footage delivers what you expect, right? How it arrives at its destination is only relevant if the footage doesn't work right for some reason. If the footage looks great and behaves predictably, who cares if it's from one chip or three, CMOS or CCD? The only times that kind of stuff will be relevant is when faced with artifacts inherent in those capture systems (such as vertical smear from CCD, or "rolling shutter" from CMOS).
 
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ecking said:
I think in good brightly lit areas 3 chip vs one good chip is negligible.
Low light is wear is counts.
And the genesis etc. isn't a fair arguement because the sensors and lens on those things are huge.
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Nobody ever made a comparison of this camera to a Genesis or a Red. Those are examples of 1 chip cameras telling us it doesn't have to be 3 chips.

The comparison is made against the FX1 which it seems to be better than.
 
Search for it, there are lots of examples; there was a German or Italian site that showed some videos of what happens. It's an odd effect that is caused by the way CMOS cameras process their "shutter", from top to bottom progressively. So what can happen is if you pan horizontally, vertical objects may look like they're "leaning" for example. One example I remember seeing was of a soccer game; the goal posts leaned to the left or the right depending on which way the camera was panned.
http://web.tiscali.it/rudiversal/images/Rolling%20Shutter%20Effekt%20HC1.JPG

CCD cameras expose the entire sensor, then shut it off and read out the image. So the whole frame, top to bottom, is exposed at once (i.e., simultaneously). With CMOS it can be done that way, but typically they don't do it that way, they implement a "rolling shutter" which means that one row is exposing while another row is "shut off" and reading out.
http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/index.asp?a=4&q=115

Think about it in context with an interlaced frame; in an interlaced "frame" you have even lines exposed at 1/60th of a second, and odd lines exposed during the next 1/60th, but it's combined into one "frame"; the result is you see the comb artifacting typical in interlaced video. Rolling Shutters do something sort of similar but then again, entirely different. They can expose and read out each line at different times than the next line, which gives CMOS the capability of executing incredibly fast frame rates for high-speed camera situations. But in normal use it just ends up making the video look a little odd because of how vertical objects lean during horizontal pans. On DVInfo somebody posted some footage that looked downright bizarre, he shot a desk fan spinning and the rolling shutter really interacted very weirdly with the fan; the speed of the fan and the speed of the shutter combined to create some very bizarre looking video.
http://www.fxsupport.de/fx.mpg

But, on the other hand, CMOS is immune to vertical streaking, which affects CCDs. Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Each creates artifacts; the trick is in knowing when it'll happen, how to avoid it, and to pick the right tool for the particular job.
 
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Spinflight said:
I don't even want to shoot with my FX1 now that I've compared the footage. I only use the Sony for shooting scrapbook personal material anyway. My HVX is the main camera. I would never show up to a set with the HV20 as a main camera. It would just look silly even though the footage is cleaner than the FX1.

Whatever Canon is doing they're doing HDV right. You can even capture RGB to DVCPRO HD with a capture card and edit in DVCPRO. The footage holds up very well. I didn't capture sound so I'm not sure if both RGB and Compsite/LR sound outputs remain live when plugged in.

I don't see how anyone anymore can say a 1 chip camera can't compare to a 3 chip camera. Canon flipped the script with this one. I think 3 chip cameras are going to be a thing of the past. If 3 chips are so much better, the Panavision Genesis would have 3 chips and Jim Jannard would've put 3 chips in the RED camera instead of just one. The 3 chips is better than 1 argument doesn't fly anymore it seems.
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Spin did you do some RGB capture? Or HDMI? I am waiting on my new system to pick up an HV20 + Intensity card for some HDMI fun.
 
Barry_Green said:
Search for it, there are lots of examples; there was a German or Italian site that showed some videos of what happens. It's an odd effect that is caused by the way CMOS cameras process their "shutter", from top to bottom progressively. So what can happen is if you pan horizontally, vertical objects may look like they're "leaning" for example. One example I remember seeing was of a soccer game; the goal posts leaned to the left or the right depending on which way the camera was panned.
http://web.tiscali.it/rudiversal/images/Rolling%20Shutter%20Effekt%20HC1.JPG

CCD cameras expose the entire sensor, then shut it off and read out the image. So the whole frame, top to bottom, is exposed at once (i.e., simultaneously). With CMOS it can be done that way, but typically they don't do it that way, they implement a "rolling shutter" which means that one row is exposing while another row is "shut off" and reading out.
http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/index.asp?a=4&q=115

Think about it in context with an interlaced frame; in an interlaced "frame" you have even lines exposed at 1/60th of a second, and odd lines exposed during the next 1/60th, but it's combined into one "frame"; the result is you see the comb artifacting typical in interlaced video. Rolling Shutters do something sort of similar but then again, entirely different. They can expose and read out each line at different times than the next line, which gives CMOS the capability of executing incredibly fast frame rates for high-speed camera situations. But in normal use it just ends up making the video look a little odd because of how vertical objects lean during horizontal pans. On DVInfo somebody posted some footage that looked downright bizarre, he shot a desk fan spinning and the rolling shutter really interacted very weirdly with the fan; the speed of the fan and the speed of the shutter combined to create some very bizarre looking video.
http://www.fxsupport.de/fx.mpg

But, on the other hand, CMOS is immune to vertical streaking, which affects CCDs. Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Each creates artifacts; the trick is in knowing when it'll happen, how to avoid it, and to pick the right tool for the particular job.
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great samples, here is what happens on the HV20 (from the "hv20-H264-24p.mov")

1174703396.jpg
 
Not sure whether that's really showing the "rolling shutter" or not, because the camera wasn't level/square to begin with (but those shots are certainly macroblocked all to hell.) I'll have to try playing it on my laptop, or out to a TV to see how it looks in motion; my creaky old desktop can't play full frame rate.

Weird effect going on in the front tire on the bottom picture, and similar but reverse effect on the white line: I don't know what to make of that; it almost looks like 4:2:0 color sampling but it's gray so... shouldn't be. Odd. But I bet you'd never see it in motion...

My HV20 was shipped today; should be here by Wed or Thu I'd guess.
 
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My HV20 is backordered at Best Buy:crybaby: but I totally agree with you Barry, this sort of thing is probably imperceivable in "real time". However, the rolling shutter issue could be a real problem on slowed down 24p footage. I'm going to hold onto my 100B for shots like that.

I have to say that the uploaded videos I've seen so far of the HV20 have exceeded my expectations for someone who is not is the position of affording an HVX anytime soon.
 
Barry
As Always -Great Input from you on the rolling shutter issue -THANKS
I assume every negative can eventually be an artistic positive with these known issue as "rolling shutter " We just keep working with the limits of what we know and then once in a while -THE HAPPY ACCIDENT .
Thanks agin Barry for a difinitive reply
Cheers
Bruce
 
agwah said:
great samples, here is what happens on the HV20 (from the "hv20-H264-24p.mov")

1174703396.jpg
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wooooaaa.... wait, where did you got that HV20 footage? where is the link??? :shocked:
 
prisma said:
wooooaaa.... wait, where did you got that HV20 footage? where is the link??? :shocked:
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http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89642

Sign up if you're not already a member. Chris is very generous with hosting footage.

There are some pc friendly, pulldown removed clips on this page of the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=647504&posted=1#post647504

Divx and Wmv. Sorry, the wmv encoding came out weird with a greenish tint artifact, I think, due to using the flip4mac demo encoder. It should play smoothly for pc users with fairly fast machines though.
 
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Dennis Woods (brevis35) just posted a clip from the HV20 with the brevis35 that kicks some serious ass. I think this will be a great option for many who cannot afford the A1. The Hv20+brevis is looking like a pretty solid affordable combo.
 
yea thank barry be sure to send us some footage when you gt your hand on the hv20 , show us some pretty pictures


peace n luv

Mark Dog
 
Taking mine on a 3,200 mile bicycle trip across the country!

Taking mine on a 3,200 mile bicycle trip across the country!

I'm not sure what has become of this thread, but I will answer to the original post...I ordered my HV20 today from onecall.com, just in time for my cross country bicycle trip from San Diego, California to St. Augustine, Florida.

Some of you might remember me as a guy who had both a DVX100 and a A1 but had to sell both due to parental obligations...

Well, that said, to me the HV20 is a blessing because it is a guilt-free, seemingly wonderful 24p enabled camera to get things rolling...

I will let you know how it turned out...both the camera and the bike trip.

So far it seems like this is the camera I've been waiting for, for about
ten years now...

Best wishes!
 
yes mediasupplystore is the way to go
i just called 1800 4511425. i spoke to Chris - What a deal!
They beat the local Hollywood store by quite a bit .
I am interested in the film look setting and to see if Marcus of DvFilms has any advice for setting up menues on this CanonHv 20 camera for a real film transfer ..so far all I see is mention of the film look when televised .
 
My HV20 (also ordered from mediasupplystore) just arrived on my doorstep this afternoon. Battery is charging right now. I've already got the camera set in 24p and "cine" gamma mode. More updates as events warrant!
 
I just got my hV20 today (mediasupplystore.com was the place to go, ask for chris) and shot some test footage in 24p cine mode. First let me say that the 24p mode made me feel like I was holding a professional camera in my hands and then when i put it up on the monitor I was like "ok I need to shoot a movie quick!" the picture is that good (I shot at night under a low watt bulb and there was practically no noise on the 30 inch I have. I like cine mode, but it was a little flat, which i guess you can change with Magic bullet or something, but then i started messing with the settings and realized after capture that the HV20 has alot of possibilities of making the fototage shot on cam to look alot like film. I'll be shooting a short scene for my film tomorrow (I am not wasting anytime, gotta win an oscar before any of you beat me to it) and i'll post the footage tomorrow. I'm sure Barry got his by now and is cracking away at the new HV20 Book so any questions can go to him... cause I have no clue what i'm doing yet.
 
Mine is sitting here in the box. I just got back from the airport so I haven't had a chance to even open it up yet; that's tomorrow's task... :)
 
GlimmerGhost said:
I just got my hV20 today (mediasupplystore.com was the place to go, ask for chris) and shot some test footage in 24p cine mode. First let me say that the 24p mode made me feel like I was holding a professional camera in my hands
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Do you have some footy you can upload?
 
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