Update on 16 GB and 32 GB Cards
- Thread starter David Saraceno
- Start date
i understand man. at our level its a hard justification to make.... 2000$ for 16minutes of record time.
but eventually once you get high enough, you can recoup that cost. its just a question of getting there.
but eventually once you get high enough, you can recoup that cost. its just a question of getting there.
danny damah said:
yea you "could", but then you face drop outs, and debris entering the spool of tape... that will make you life not worth living once a 40,000$ a day shoot is ruined because of a drop out when the spokes model says the name of the product..... think business. not pleasure. when it comes to personaly projects, i think the HVX is too much camera for the hobbyist. if i didint make my living off it, i would eve have bought it. i would have went fot the Canon instead. its like half the operation al cost.
Not necessarily - broadcasters routinely reuse their tape stock, but the large ones have dedicated tape recycling units, and commercial businesses exist to service the needs of smaller companies and individuals. Do a google search for "tape recycling" and it should return some addresses appropiate to where you live. They also give an idea of what is involved, but part of the process involves laser scanning the surface of the tape to check for imperfections, as well as cleaning and bulk erasure.TimurCivan said:
My own experience is that they are then MORE reliable than a brand new tape, and the recycling charges are much less than the cost of new tapes. (Depending on type!)
TedRR
Well-known member
Harddrive, I'm not poo-pooing on your right to use a tape 20 times or use recycled tape.
But I NEVER use our Beta or Mini-DV tape more then once. Sure, you'll often be fine, but when you're not, it can be UGLY.
My clients pay for new tape for the shoot and dubs so it doesn't cost me anything. In fact I make a couple bucks on each one.
As for the recycled tapes, the TV station I used to work for tried them a few times. They sucked and they regreted it every time.
This was from penny-pinchers who would re-use tape stock, (in news) until the dropouts were so bad the story was lost, then yell at the Photog!
rogar-Smoke(DBG):
Recycled tapes, I'd never gamble my reputation or my client's project on them.
JMHO.
But I NEVER use our Beta or Mini-DV tape more then once. Sure, you'll often be fine, but when you're not, it can be UGLY.
My clients pay for new tape for the shoot and dubs so it doesn't cost me anything. In fact I make a couple bucks on each one.
As for the recycled tapes, the TV station I used to work for tried them a few times. They sucked and they regreted it every time.
This was from penny-pinchers who would re-use tape stock, (in news) until the dropouts were so bad the story was lost, then yell at the Photog!
rogar-Smoke(DBG): Recycled tapes, I'd never gamble my reputation or my client's project on them.
JMHO.
ozduc
Well-known member
danny damah said:
That was my point! Why bother complaining about the cost to buy when you can rent when you need to.
danny damah said:
I wasn't arguing anything! My point here was that people are complaining about the cost of acquiring DVCPro High definition footage for under $10,000. Just over a year ago it would have cost them 10 times that amount. And yes, professionals buy equipment in the hope that it will be amortized over a certain period and pay for itself and they do buy unproven equiment all the time, it is a risk of doing business on the cutting edge.
danny damah said:
That is exactly what I'm saying. Rent the gear if you have a job that needs it. So I dont see your point here when in the next post you say .........
danny damah said:
That makes a lot of sense now! Buy a camera and put it in the closet 'cause the dude selling it was cool!
danny damah said:
Well that's a sad way to look at it.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, that's the problem right there. You should be looking at the money you'd MAKE from buying this stuff. Look in the "who's paid off their HVX" thread and see what's going on out there. Most of us who are using this gear have paid it off within the first month of buying it; many of us paid it off the first job it was used on. Paid off, free and clear. As in, from now it is a money-generating investment, not an expense.
If you bought it and put it in a closet, you're a) looking at it entirely wrong, or b) bought the wrong camera.
All I'll add is that the only serious tape faults I've encountered have been with brand new tape (about three times in 15 years). With professionally recycled stock, (accounting for a higher percentage of use) I've had no serious issues during the same period. With Beta, there may have been a few more minor drop outs, but I haven't noticed that with Digital tapes. Any damaged or worn tapes should get rejected and junked - the ones that get through are verified good, and that's more than can be said with new tapes.TedRR said:
By and large it's the bigger organisations that are happy with recycled stock (and often supply it), with smaller clients insisting on new.
As far as your example goes, then were they recycling tapes in a professional way, with proper equipment, or simply reusing them unchecked? I'll endorse proper recycling, but not simple reuse. The former is sensible economics, it's the latter that is penny-pinching.
danny damah said:
Danny,
The worth of a product has nothing to do with the cost to create it, the difference is called a profit margin. Something is worth what a buyer and seller agree to at the time of a transaction. In this case, you are not a buyer and so you do not commit the transaction. It's not worth it TO YOU...
As far as comparing it to other technologies, the economics of scale to not seem come into your assessment.
I suggest you try to learn a little more about capitalism, or the film you make will only be worth the celluloid it is printed on.
Bob
hvx_germanboy
Well-known member
Hey Barry and all others..!
Its great news that the bigger cards are finally coming, and i hope this will also bring down the price in generell...!
My question is different, and very immportant for the future, also to my to purchase a new Laptop:
Should i get one with PCMCIA slot, or rather get one with exprexxcard slot and wait for the Adapter?
Wuestion here is: is it really faster to download the cards to the Laptop when there is the PCMCIA-adapter finally, compared to normal PCMCIA slots, or is this nonsense seen from the technichal side??
(Can the P2 card be read faster technichly then in a "traditional" pcmcia device?)
Its great news that the bigger cards are finally coming, and i hope this will also bring down the price in generell...!
My question is different, and very immportant for the future, also to my to purchase a new Laptop:
Should i get one with PCMCIA slot, or rather get one with exprexxcard slot and wait for the Adapter?
Wuestion here is: is it really faster to download the cards to the Laptop when there is the PCMCIA-adapter finally, compared to normal PCMCIA slots, or is this nonsense seen from the technichal side??
(Can the P2 card be read faster technichly then in a "traditional" pcmcia device?)
Jason Ramsey
Admin
I would recommend trying to find a laptop that has both pcmcia and expresscard slots. You can use the pcmcia for your p2 cards, and the expresscard for an eSATA setup (to house and edit your footage from) Most laptops often only come with a 5400 rpm drive (not a huge deal). Most laptop HDD's are often not large enough. Plus, most NLE's recommend that your installation be on a different drive from that of your footage.
If you can't find one that you like with both slots, it's kinda up to you. expresscard is becoming the norm. The dual systems adapter that is coming soon, will allow you to use your p2 cards with the expresscard slot.
As far as which is faster: regular pcmcia or expresscard w/adapter... I don't really know. I do know that expresscard slots themselves are faster than pcmcia slots. But, I don't know if the adapter is able to take full advantage of the increased bandwidth of expresscard slots, or if it is bottlenecked down to pcmcia speeds. But, it doesn't really matter. I offload my cards via my laptops pcmcia slot to my eSATA HDD's via my laptops expresscard. I offload full 8 gig cards in around 4 minutes, maybe 5 tops. That's fast. 8 gigs of 720pn is 20-21 minutes. That's like 4x-5x realtime. For 1080, offload is 1.5-2x realtime.
Not to mention, if your NLE supports it, the fact that you can just stick your card in the laptop and begin editing straight off the card. No offload necessary. When cards become larger and larger, this benefit will be HUGE, in my opinion.
don't worry about any potential speed difference in pcmcia vs. expresscard w/adapter. P2 cards are built to handle something like 4 streams of 1080p in realtime.
Jason
If you can't find one that you like with both slots, it's kinda up to you. expresscard is becoming the norm. The dual systems adapter that is coming soon, will allow you to use your p2 cards with the expresscard slot.
As far as which is faster: regular pcmcia or expresscard w/adapter... I don't really know. I do know that expresscard slots themselves are faster than pcmcia slots. But, I don't know if the adapter is able to take full advantage of the increased bandwidth of expresscard slots, or if it is bottlenecked down to pcmcia speeds. But, it doesn't really matter. I offload my cards via my laptops pcmcia slot to my eSATA HDD's via my laptops expresscard. I offload full 8 gig cards in around 4 minutes, maybe 5 tops. That's fast. 8 gigs of 720pn is 20-21 minutes. That's like 4x-5x realtime. For 1080, offload is 1.5-2x realtime.
Not to mention, if your NLE supports it, the fact that you can just stick your card in the laptop and begin editing straight off the card. No offload necessary. When cards become larger and larger, this benefit will be HUGE, in my opinion.
don't worry about any potential speed difference in pcmcia vs. expresscard w/adapter. P2 cards are built to handle something like 4 streams of 1080p in realtime.
Jason
Jason Ramsey
Admin
On another note: I'm about sick and tired of listening to people complaining about the cost of p2 technology. Yes, it's expensive to buy p2 cards right now. Yes p2 cards are not very large, yet.
But, here's the point: Why sit here and complain about it.
If you don't like p2 don't use it.
If p2 workflow doesn't work for you, don't use it.
If you want HDV, then go buy an A1, and use it.
If you don't recognize the fact that (while even though p2 acquisition is expensive when compared to HDV in its price range) the HVX offers (as just mentioned in this thread) DVCPRO HD acquisition at a fraction of the cost it would have cost just a couple of years ago. Not to mention a tapeless workflow. DVCPRO HD and all it's benefits (4:2:2 color space just as one example) was unattainable for many of the people on this board before the HVX. And, while improvements haven't been fast enough for some, the cost vs. benefit ratio continues to improve. And the speed at which that ratio is improving is about to get a whole lot faster (in my opinion). If you don't want dvcpro hd, at a sub 10k price point, then don't get it.
Stop comparing the cost of tapeless acquisition and workflow to tape. They are different beasts. Each with their own benefits and disadvantages.
The HVX has made tapeless workflow available to the masses at this price point. With a codec that you could only find in a camera of 10 times the cost. Not to mention the cost of dvcpro tape, and a deck, and, and, and.
It's like saying that a 2 dollar bottle of wine is just as good as a 100 dollar bottle of wine, when you have never tried the 100 dollar bottle. Yes they are just as good in the fact that they will both get you drunk, if that is your goal. But the 100 dollar bottle offers subtelties, that you can't find in the two dollar bottle.
If you haven't used p2 technology. If you haven't tested it's workflow with your environment, Stop bitching about it. Recognize the vast improvement it IS over prior DVCPRO options, and stop comparing it to other options in its price range.
I think I'm done
Jason
But, here's the point: Why sit here and complain about it.
If you don't like p2 don't use it.
If p2 workflow doesn't work for you, don't use it.
If you want HDV, then go buy an A1, and use it.
If you don't recognize the fact that (while even though p2 acquisition is expensive when compared to HDV in its price range) the HVX offers (as just mentioned in this thread) DVCPRO HD acquisition at a fraction of the cost it would have cost just a couple of years ago. Not to mention a tapeless workflow. DVCPRO HD and all it's benefits (4:2:2 color space just as one example) was unattainable for many of the people on this board before the HVX. And, while improvements haven't been fast enough for some, the cost vs. benefit ratio continues to improve. And the speed at which that ratio is improving is about to get a whole lot faster (in my opinion). If you don't want dvcpro hd, at a sub 10k price point, then don't get it.
Stop comparing the cost of tapeless acquisition and workflow to tape. They are different beasts. Each with their own benefits and disadvantages.
The HVX has made tapeless workflow available to the masses at this price point. With a codec that you could only find in a camera of 10 times the cost. Not to mention the cost of dvcpro tape, and a deck, and, and, and.
It's like saying that a 2 dollar bottle of wine is just as good as a 100 dollar bottle of wine, when you have never tried the 100 dollar bottle. Yes they are just as good in the fact that they will both get you drunk, if that is your goal. But the 100 dollar bottle offers subtelties, that you can't find in the two dollar bottle.
If you haven't used p2 technology. If you haven't tested it's workflow with your environment, Stop bitching about it. Recognize the vast improvement it IS over prior DVCPRO options, and stop comparing it to other options in its price range.
I think I'm done
Jason
Barry_Green
Moderator
Get both! There are several brands that offer both slots; my Sony SZ340 has both.hvx_germanboy said:
No. Traditional PCMCIA is capable of 133 megabytes per second, a P2 card is capable of a maximum of 80 megabytes per second. So offloading through an ExpressCard slot will not be any faster.
So get both slots -- use the PCMCIA slot for offloading cards, and use the ExpressCard slot for an e-sata adapter or an FW800 adapter to an external RAID, and your card transfers will be extremely fast. Or, as card capacities grow to the point where it's more and more practical to edit straight from the cards, you could use the onboard slot for one card, and get the duel-systems ExpressCard adapter so you could mount a second card. That way your laptop could be editing from two cards at once! :thumbsup:
hvx_germanboy
Well-known member
That sounds like a good suggestion Barry,
my only concern is to find a good Laptop with Expresscard AND PCMCIA in about 6 month...it looks like they reduce the PCMCIA slots quite everywhere...i cant get the Laptop now, but maybe ill try it in 3-6 month, knocking on wood that there will be still good Laptops with both slots...i still have a expresscard/FW 800 Adapter from a different production i assisted for, that made offloading quite fast with the right external drive..!
my only concern is to find a good Laptop with Expresscard AND PCMCIA in about 6 month...it looks like they reduce the PCMCIA slots quite everywhere...i cant get the Laptop now, but maybe ill try it in 3-6 month, knocking on wood that there will be still good Laptops with both slots...i still have a expresscard/FW 800 Adapter from a different production i assisted for, that made offloading quite fast with the right external drive..!
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
Do you have a mercedes badge on the keys to your skoda as well?
Niels Neeskens
Well-known member
haha don't invite the hot actress at your place then
bbalser
Veteran
P2 cards have nothing to do with the manufacure of the FS-100. The price of either will not effect the price of the other.treefilm said:
Another issue I'd like to add to Barry's previous post, is that P2 makes DVCPRO-HD affordable for a lot of us. Have you priced DVCPRO-HD tapes? Not to mention the price of a deck?
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