HVX200 editing. Performance vs.Cost. Mac or PC?

D

Drcoffee

Well-known member
Hi,

My work has a new HVX200 and I really want to make the most out of it (at weekends :) )

Can anyone help me on the current best cost effective set up for editing HVX200 footage. Im prepared to build my own with lets say £2000 max for the system (excluding software).

Would a £2000 Mac outperform a £2000 PC?

Is maxed out ram a real bonus, 3gig+?

Also is a good graphics card essential? Quadro FX?

Regards
Jon
 
I priced comparable Dell and MacPro systems at the USA site, and the Apple stock 2.66 Ghz dual Xeon was $1K USD cheaper.

It also does Windows. Actually, according PC Magazine, it does Windows XP faster than a PC dual Xeon 2.66 Ghz.

It's your call, and I'm not into platform wars. Just reporting what I learned.

As to cards, the stock nvidea 7300 runs just fine for Final Cut Pro.

You can add three additional internal SATA drives with driver carriers that go in and out in about two minutes.

FW is implemented well, and a/t to this site, there should be PC card reader available this year from specialized communications.

OS X.5 (Leopard) is expected soon, and NAB should bring improvements to DVCProHD/MXF importing.
 
I edit on both PC and Mac. Both will edit footage. If you can wait until NAB, make a choice which way to go then.

Its a personal choice. But look at the big picture (long term). Some editing programs (like Avid) will edit on both PC or Mac.

Macs and PCs seesaw back and forth all the time as to who does what best, so I would say that part is a non-issue.

If you can try something before you buy something do it.

Like I said, they all edit one way or another, but its up to you as to how you like to edit. Personal choice.
 
Thanks for the info. Sorry I'm not sure about a few things..

Whats this mean.. ? "FW is implemented well, and a/t to this site, there should be PC card reader available this year from specialized communications."

And what does 'NAB' mean?

Regards
Jon
 
NAB is here. .

http://www.nabshow.com/

Its the big show of manufacturers showing off their electronics. . .

I use PC, but most people here use Mac, its your preference. Pick on then go from there. .

IF you do go with PC, check this out.

http://www.johnrofrano.com/pcequipment.htm

Its one possible way to go with the PC platform, but you really have to figure out which way to go, its your preference. There are many post on each platform, but its best to figure out which SOFTWARE you like best (Final Cut Pro vs PC based software) and go that route. . . .

PS . A card reader is simply a CardBus adapter to read a p2 card, but you can go different ways getting the data to the computer. PC CardBus adapters run $20-$75.
 
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Whats this mean.. ? FW is implemented well, and a/t to this site, there should be PC card reader available this year from specialized communications.
Click to expand...

Firewire seems to run better on Macs versus PCs.

USB2 seems to run better on PCs versus Macs.

As to a card reader for desktop Macs:

There is a post from a company that reveals it will provides a p2 card slot for desktop Macs:

"The next project on the list after the CinePorter ships is a one or two slot front mounted CardBus adapter. 3.5" drive bay with a 2' cable to a PCI card. About $400 list. All the extension technology is already developed for the CinePorter, we just have to design the product. No time right now, because all the development time is going into the CinePorter."
 
Internal PCCard adapters for PCI-based PCs are available from a number of sources. Unfortunately they lack Mac drivers and are therefore limited to being used under Windows.
 
This is a tough question because it's hard to get objective, non-opiniated answers. The whole "PC vs. Mac" thing seems as bad as the "Ford vs. Chevy" stuff that always started fights in high school!!

In the end it's personal preference, but now that the Macs can run Windows it makes sense to me to get that, even if you're a Windows guy you can still run any Mac apps you might want.
 
I can vouch for the MacPro because the price was beautiful, the speed is incredible, and YES it runs Windows XP faster than any PC ive ever been on.

- Kyle
 
Aron Peterson said:
Another vote for Mac. It's a PC too you know ;)
Click to expand...


Haha that´s true indeed.
My vote goes to Windows though. Yes the OS is not a slick as Apple´s.
But I refuse to pay for the design of the box. MACs are still more $$ than a custom-made PC. Macs are not more stable at all. I got that confirmed from Apple users.
I also want to be compatible with the rest of the world and not only the "self named creative elite". While with Windows NT there were many problems in WinXP I had no crash ever yet. I had no virus ever, either. Of course I don´t bucket everything onto my machine. I keep it poor with software: Edius, Liquid, After Effects, Wavelab, DVD-Lab, DVD-shrink and a few extras. No games, no gimmicks.
My old machine with a mere 3.06HT processor edits 720p with Edius (Broadcast4 costs only 600) without problems. I just had a shoot with another HVX owner who used a G5-FCP combo and while I had no problems from P2 - > USB-on-the-go -> drivebackup -> tapebackup his problems started already when we tried to copy the stuff from the USB-OTG drive to his firewire drive.

I think both can do everything. WinXP is rocksolid when treated professionally. APPLE looks better, maybe feels better, but IMO is not better anymore.
At the end of they day they are both only tools. So get a quote on both, play around with them. Look at your working environment: do people you work with use this or the other. Compatibility is very important these days when projects get spanned over several machines.
 
alpi69 said:
Haha that´s true indeed.
My vote goes to Windows though. Yes the OS is not a slick as Apple´s.
But I refuse to pay for the design of the box. MACs are still more $$ than a custom-made PC. Macs are not more stable at all. I got that confirmed from Apple users.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what Mac they are using. Probably one that is 20 years old. Yes, a custom made PC is cheaper but there's nothing in the Windows world as stable as a Mac or Linux box. I really choked up laughing today when reading this review of Windows Vista...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/14/pricey_beta_bugger/

In the long run you're paying more for a Windows PC because upgrades are more costly and machines slow down with each upgrade. My meager PowerBook 12" has a paltry 1.5Ghz G4 with 768MB RAM. It has gone through OS 10.2, 10.3 and now 10.4, each upgrade made it faster. The cost of all three major upgrades is the same price as Vista alone which is too monstrous and bloated to run on Intel machines as old or have most of the same specs as my Mac. I can also edit DVCPRO HD 1080P with ease on my laptop.

It's really obvious that a Mac should be any serious filmmaker's tool. Today they run OS X and Windows, meaning every app you need. A Mac mini can be picked up for a few hundred dollars. A very capable MacBook for around a grand.
 
Indeed the MacPro runs Windows like a champ which was a main reason for buying it. I could do BOTH and not be limited by either kind of OS. I don't plan on putting Vista on it but being able to have both OS's is a plus for sure. The MacPro is the first Mac that gives that "less than the other guys" price wise. It may be beaten but alot of custom PC's but build a custom PC with the same components in it and you'll be hardpressed to be THAT much lower than its standard price. I'm a diehard PC fan all the way but when I bought the Mac I knew I was getting a PC and Mac so I had a big smirk on my face.

It just depends on budget I suppose. But alot of the lower end Macs can run FCP and edit HD quite beautifully.

- Kyle
 
Isn't it more a software choice that leads you to your platform?

Edius has been amazing for me, ultra-robust and incredibly efficient real-time work with direct ingest and export.

Absolutely no P2 problems whatsoever.
 
Aron Peterson said:
I have no idea what Mac they are using. Probably one that is 20 years old. Yes, a custom made PC is cheaper but there's nothing in the Windows world as stable as a Mac or Linux box. I really choked up laughing today when reading this review of Windows Vista...
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Sorry to say Aron, I work on both Mac and PC as per my earlier post in this thread. And I would have to echo alpi69's comments. To date I have found without exception that the PCs running XP Professional (and not used as an "install everything you can find for software machine") in other words treated as a workstation for editing, have been flawlessly stable and faster when compaired to G5s running OSX. I don't have an axe to grind with Mac, they are both tools to be used. I am only citing my personal experience with both platforms. I have not yet had the opportunity to try the new Mac Pro. I look forward to it if it can make my work more efficient.

Vista is not certified for any real editing app, and I suspect it won't be for some time yet so you can't compare it to anything. Quit buying into Mac's marketing tactics. These are tools to be used for work.

Aron Peterson said:
In the long run you're paying more for a Windows PC because upgrades are more costly and machines slow down with each upgrade.
Click to expand...
This is not accurate. Professional editing apps state plainly not to update anything unless approved first. Even then, you have full control over what gets installed simply by selecting "Custom Installation" BTW, upgrades are free of charge on a PC. Mac has ALWAYS made the customer pay for incremental upgrades to the OS including fixes that should have been corrected for free.

Aron Peterson said:
My meager PowerBook 12" has a paltry 1.5Ghz G4 with 768MB RAM. It has gone through OS 10.2, 10.3 and now 10.4, each upgrade made it faster. The cost of all three major upgrades is the same price as Vista alone which is too monstrous and bloated to run on Intel machines as old or have most of the same specs as my Mac.
Click to expand...
As stated above, Vista is not certified for any professional editing app at this time. Please compare... dare I say it... apples with apples...:)

Aron Peterson said:
It's really obvious that a Mac should be any serious filmmaker's tool.
Click to expand...
Again, a biased oppinion you give. I edit within the film and television community of which you speak of. I have done so for the last 12 years going back to the time when there only was a Mac choice. Most editing facilities have both PCs and Macs to use as tools. Both have their strengths and weakness. None of them has it perfect.

They are both tools. Understand that. A means to an end.

At the end of the day, if you can't tell the story as a craftsperson... you don't work. And it won't matter that you are a Mac or PC person. Both edit. Its simply a business or personal choice as to what you use to do it.

Oh... and in case you missed it... I use both Mac and PC... and they both edit very well.
 
The original question and purpose of this thread was specifically about editing, specifically for an HVX.

In that question there can be only one answer: the Windows XP system is highly preferable over the Mac OS at this current time. Why? Because there are more and better tools on the XP OS. Here are a few of the key differences:

1) You can execute firmware updates only on WinXP. An OSX user cannot update their firmware for any P2 product.

2) You can format cards on WinXP. You can't on OSX. OSX can "erase" cards, but can't perform a proper format.

3) You can run the free P2 Viewer application on WinXP. OSX doesn't have a comparable tool; you can buy P2 Log for $100 or use FCP but there's no P2 Viewer for OSX.

4) You can copy cards with 100% reliable performance on WinXP. MacOS occasionally displays some level of instability in copying cards, resulting in either false reports of "corrupt clips" or in actual glitches in the footage. Neither situation EVER occurs under WinXP.

5) Modern Mac laptops have eliminated the ability to import from the cards, as they've eliminated the PCMCIA slot. You can still buy modern WinXP laptops that offer the PCMCIA slot for direct card offloads. Soon this shouldn't be a deciding factor because the duel-systems adapter should be out. Of course, this point is rather moot since the Mac doesn't provide for 100% reliable card imports anyway.

6) OSX has no provision for understanding, working with, importing, or playing the MXF file format used by P2. Every major WinXP editor either has that capability natively, or can use RayLight to incorporate that capability. MacOS requires you to use FCP (or P2 Log) to convert the MXF files into Quicktime .MOV files. This puts OSX at a moderate to significant disadvantage when talking about specifically using it with an HVX. Especially as card capacity grows, this issue will become a more and more glaring limitation in the Mac workflow. When you have a 64GB card and you need to edit your footage, the ability to pop in a card and reliably edit immediately, from the card, is going to easily and handily trump the MacOS experience which requires you to a) make a "disk image", which will take an hour, and then b) import and convert the footage to Quicktime files, which will take another hour, and then c) if you're diligent, double-check your files to make sure they didn't glitch. That's all going to add up to two to three hours' delay -- in that amount of time, the WinXP editor will have been editing six streams of HD right off the card, and may even be done with their project and moving on to the next one. The unwrap/conversion to Quicktime process is soooooo 2006; it's an outdated/outmoded/unnecessarily-inconvenient workflow impediment that WinXP users don't have to be bothered with (unless they choose the CineForm workflow, of course).

7) Further on that issue, OSX has no capability to render a P2 card image back out to the camera. You can "print to tape" and record on cards, but that eliminates frame-accurate export (frame-accurate start/finish points) as well as the ability to take advantage of pN mode when writing back to the card. WinXP can do it easily, through RayLight or EDIUS.

8) The P2 Store works better on WinXP. MacOS occasionally doesn't mount all of a P2 Store's volumes accurately, which -- if you're not paying careful attention -- may result in you not copying all your footage over. Which can result in lost footage. This situation *never* occurs on WinXP. Also, WinXP can easily and accurately differentiate and enumerate all the volumes on a P2 Store. MacOS doesn't -- it just presents you with 15 different "No Name" volumes, a silly behavior that makes data management unnecessarily inconvenient.

When evaluating the two platforms, it's obvious that (for whatever the various reasons) WinXP has the better P2/MXF tools, more P2/MXF integration, better P2 Card support, more reliability when working with the cards. Panasonic and Apple both have a lot of work to do to give MacOs users the same caliber and class of tools that WinXP users already enjoy. But until they do, Mac users are settling for a substandard P2 experience. And there can be no guarantee that they ever will upgrade the tools to give MacOS users a comparable experience. So all you're guaranteed is what exists today. And for today, the WinXP system offers better tools, better integration, and a more reliable import.

Which is disturbing, since 80% of HVX users are using MacOS! And most are very happy. All I can say is -- trust me, guys, it can be soooo much better than what you're currently getting. Demand Apple and Panasonic to give you parity to what WinXP users get.

With all that said -- if you want a desktop, and can afford a Mac Pro, the Mac Pro seems like an excellent tool. It still seems cheaper than a comparably-equipped Dell, although you would have to buy WinXP separately. But then you have the best of both worlds, since the one computer can run both OS's. I'm 90% certain that my next desktop will be a Mac Pro. But there's no way in hades that I'll run it in Mac mode with the HVX. I won't take that step backwards, not until both Apple and Panasonic improve the experience on the MacOS to where it's at least on par with the WinXP experience.

But if money's tight, and your main goal for buying is for HVX/P2 editing and integration, do yourself a massive favor and get something that can run WinXP (even if it's an Intel Mac!) At least until Apple and Panasonic give MacOS a comparable experience.
 
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