My Plead to the RED Team for Alternative Lens Mounts

HKSC

Member
There are a lot of talk about using 35mm still camera lenses on RED ONE and several of us has requested different lens mount adapters to fit the RED camera. The RED team has indicated in different occasions that they will provide Nikon and Canon FL mounts initially but users have to go to 3rd party manufacturers for other brands because they will be too busy to do it.

But the suggestion is not really viable, in my humble opinion. Here is my hypothesis. There are over 1,000 reservations of the camera at this point. Let's say 1000 units will actually take delivery when the camera ships. Maybe 300 units belong to rental houses and cinematographers with existing PL mount cine lenses. Another 400 buyers are totally satisfied with Nikon and Canon PL optics and have no intention of trying something else out. That leaves only 300 guys who might want a different mount for various reasons between Contax/Yashica, Minolta, Leica M, Leica R, Olympus OM, Pentax K and 42mm screw or even Rollei 35SL...After taking into account RED's future customers that might also want some of these mounts, the demand are still tiny compared to other professional products, not to mention consumer stuff.

It is simply bad economics for sane business people to take care of those like me who want to use best affordable lenses on this camera. Other lens mounts will be absurdly expensive if anyone would make it at all. We need help from the RED team. Only you guys will care enough, if my imagination proves to be correct, to help your customers out. Please do it as a bonus service to your customers. Realistically, I think the most needed lens mounts are Zeiss Contax RTS, Leica M and Leica R at this point. It will be great if you can make a Canon FD lens stop down its aperture easily as well. Do it as a favor and offer alternative lens mounts at an affordable price. Don't send us to the 3rd parties.

About the time issue, I believe making a lens mount with absolutely no complex mechanism or any electronic parts at all is more about precision machining than tedious design. It shouldn't cost too much of your energy. If the MovieTube people can it, the RED team can do it. You can also contract an experience machine shop to do it under your supervision. By ordering in batches from one place will lower the manufacturing cost and hopefully make everybody happy.

I hope somebody at RED will listen and consider my plead seriously.
 
You're making your numbers assumptions based on the existing quantity of reservation holders. Those are just pre-release reservations! What are the actual sales numbers going to be like once there's a product on the market? 10x as many maybe, in the first year alone? Reservation holders are a unique group; we got in based on no product, no footage, no shipping tangible items at all, just on a promise. And over 1,000 of us signed up. What'll happen when there's an actual product out there?

Besides, 300 units is not that small a size for the cine market. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony's only sold 300 CineAlta F900's worldwide. 300 units wouldn't be enough to get true economies of scale in manufacturing, but there are reasons that so many cine accessories are priced at what they are, and it's because the market base isn't all that large.

Even so, I had a one-off lens adapter custom machined for my CP16R to take M42 lenses, and just that one individual item cost me less than $500. I had my Konvas 35mm camera converted to M42 mount, it was under $750 for an entire new faceplate and everything, and it's an absolute first-class job. So even if we had to hire Les Bosher (www.lesbosher.co.uk) to custom engineer lens mounts one at a time for us, I doubt they'd cost more than maybe $600 apiece, and I'm sure if the quantity was 100 or more that price would come down quickly.
 
I follow you Barry and the Les Bosher tip is really gold.

However, I second the HKSC plead. I wouldn't say on the same mounts needs. My Nikon F mount will be enough but there are 1073 different reservations.

On the other hand, we don't have yet any date for the SLR mounts release even if it seems they will be available with the camera delivery. It's a question of good sense, nevertheless, I'd like to hear a word coming from the RED people.

:dankk2: in advance!

HKSC said:
(...) offer alternative lens mounts at an affordable price. Don't send us to the 3rd parties.
 
That's one of the reasons i put the poll up. I just wondered what percentage of reservation holders were going for SLR lenses.

Personally, I will be spending ALL of my cash on the camera alone. If you think that I was in the market for a HVX and decided to wait for this, you'll guess that I dont have the wonga for a cinema lens too. So Im hoping they will have a nikon or canon mount ready sometime near shipping, otherwise I'll have a nifty camera but bugger all to do with it.. :-)

are there any cheaper PL mount lenses to get me started? Assuming I'm only shooting 2K for the moment, any tips?
 
Besides, 300 units is not that small a size for the cine market. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony's only sold 300 CineAlta F900's worldwide. 300 units wouldn't be enough to get true economies of scale in manufacturing, but there are reasons that so many cine accessories are priced at what they are, and it's because the market base isn't all that large.

I am sure Barry knows this already:) Whilst doing my Google searches for lenses etc I came across an article that stated that Sony had sold some 27,000 CineAlta units since 2000. I wonder how many units did Sony sell for cine-use compared to ENG type use? Whatever the percentages for different types of uses it does show that making red one as versatile as possible whilst also making it primarily for cine-use was a good move on reds part. If red succeeds in Hollywood (extremely likely I think) then it paves the way for red two and red three over the next five year period perhaps. Given that red is modular (up to a point) the potential for red is quite substantial over the next five years.

I have access to some lenses as do many of you guys, so yes we would all like more lens mount options some of which might well be more complicated than some imagine?but not at the cost of less effort to getting the red one camera as near perfect as possible with whatever bells and whistles it has.

The red one is a huge sacrifice to me and to many others, I would hate red to come out with a replacement red two the following year that had items much needed but not able to be added to red one. Already red has on their plate, red rails, red gun, red cage, red prime lens and later on red zoom lens. None of us knows how much effort red is putting into what? Who is working on what or solely on what or who is working on several items etc? Does working on ANY of the add-ons and accessories deflect the red team form getting the camera completed? We don’t know?

I would suggest (just a thought that’s all) that if team red gave us a little more information on that front we might be better placed to make comments on what we would like etc.
Red are in an awkward position for making add-ons for use with its camera. Jim Jannard has already stated that he will try his best to get Canon and Nikon mounts ready for when the camera ships. He does appreciate the position many of us are in, there is obviously a limit to what red can supply at any given time initially anyway. If reds ambition to be the "best camera company in the world" is to be realized it has to ensure that it provides a brilliant camera at launch. and any add-on that can have an impact on the quality output of the footage (like properly made mounts I imagine) must be of top quality. Giving that red has already stated that they will encourage third party involvement we should see some "selected" development in this direction either way.
Michael
 
mike the beginner said:
I am sure Barry knows this already:) Whilst doing my Google searches for lenses etc I came across an article that stated that Sony had sold some 27,000 CineAlta units since 2000.

CineAlta is a comprehensive family name. They have the F900H, F900W, F900R, F950, HDC1000, HDC1500, PDW350 XDCAM-HD, PDW-F330 XDCAM-HD, 14 different decks, and probably other gear as well. That's all for just the "CineAlta" badge; the entire HDCAM lineup is obviously much larger.

Where did you see an article that said they're claiming 27,000 CineAlta units since 2000? I found an Interbee press release from 2006 that says 27,000 HD units sold, but that certainly isn't just F900 CineAlta cameras! That would include the HDW700 and 750 and all HDCAM cameras and decks and other associated equipment, and not just the 24p F900.

Maybe 300 is a bit low, but I'm pretty sure I'm not off by a factor of 90... :thumbsup:
 
HKSC 2007 said:
Soon But not yet ready that's is SONY
Should be:

Soon
Only
Not
Yet

It's like Thomson's Infinity. It's been delayed so many times, that's what the name "infinity" stands for (i.e., that's when it'll be released)... :thumbsup:
 
AND bottom line is ...
with 35mm adaptors for 1/4,1/3 & 2/3 camera's out there THAT alone has driven up the price on used PL mount lens and raised interest in used still lens .. now add in RED , SI camera's ....
we know at least 1073 REDs have been reserved and a very hi percent will need lens ... it very well could be that many will rent and that could put a shortage in the local lens rental market depending on your area ??
i would think that at some point somebody will see a opportunity here ?
we do know zeiss has announced a few new lens for the still market with nikor mounts priced in the 900-1500 range ... perhaps century ( now schnieider) will tool up their conversions or another optex will tool up ?
or many of the 35mm adaptor's creative types will start taking a close look at converting still lens or making mounts for many still lens to PL ?
 
Hi,

Geoff Boyle mentioned on CML that renting PL lenses in London was already an issue!

I remember Centuary conversions of old Cooke series II/III costing $5000+ per lens, with the lens suppied by the customer! I have a price list form Van Diemen in the UK and they chage £4500 per lens!

Stephen
 
Does anyone know if a PL mount adaptor to Canon, Nikon, etc... is possible to be made? Wouldn't that just be the simplest solution giving a lot more options to use the camera on different projects day to day?
 
The bigger issue for me with stills is the focus ring needing to be reset for cine use. I am having my K35s remounted to PL right now and it is costly - about $800.00 per lens.
 
There are way too many lens types and it would also be difficult to estimate how many people would even buy them to make a profit.

What makes the most sense for REd users to go the "build to order" route through the guy barry mentioned. The lens mounts for movietube hover around the same price for the custom lens mount job.
 
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acoreasc said:
The bigger issue for me with stills is the focus ring needing to be reset for cine use. I am having my K35s remounted to PL right now and it is costly - about $800.00 per lens.

Hi,

But they were already motion picture lenses? Sometimes it's just a mount that needs to be swopped over.

Stephen
 
Finner said:
Does anyone know if a PL mount adaptor to Canon, Nikon, etc... is possible to be made? Wouldn't that just be the simplest solution giving a lot more options to use the camera on different projects day to day?

Hi,

A Nikon to PL adapter does exist, one major drawback you can only shoot macro as the FFD of Nikon is less than Arri PL. The lens can't be focussed at infinity.

Stephen
 
there were nikor to Aaton adaptor made and they worked !!!
also i beleive still lens 200mm and longer can be converted to PL ( many are converted to a "nuetral mount - then you put on the mount you need for your camera = those lens can be used on many camera's ) ...

so perhaps if 3rd party came up with Aaton mount for RED then get nikor to Aaton adaptor and Nikor still lens will work ..
 
Stephen - YES sorry! The K35s are cine lenses - just need to be remounted to PL, but there was some custom machine work and design that needed to be done - the rear elements on some of them are really big! On the lookout for a 135mm too.....ever searching.
 
With the Red made PL mount and NIKOR mount or CANON mount has anyone heard if they will be easy to interchange on the body if you owned them all? Would correct calibration of switching mounts become a problem with changing them yourself?
 
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