Budgeting a small feature to shoot on RED?

So whats the verdict on those budgets? Is it doable for around 200k? Are you guys planning on upgrading everything with the money from the budget and are you guys renting or buying?
 
taubkin said:
You're right Emanuel, I'd just wait a tad longer for embrace the 4K workflow. I also trust the RED people and know they will get it right, as developing the 4K workflow is as important as the camera itself. Looking at a tech viewpoint, I'm excited as you are, and actually anxious to be able to start using this camera and workflow as soon as it's availiable. But to be on the safe side, if I were TODAY budgeting for a feature, I woudn't even consider RED, simply because it doesn't exist. Maybe production will be delayed, maybe the first batch will have a huge problem. Then what? You loose a film? There's no way I'd risk looking a film for a technical problem.

Of course, the chance those problems actually happen is minimal, especially the part about the camera being bad, we can all agree to that. But nevertheless. Better safe than sorry IMHO.

But I agree with you that democratizing desktop digital cinema is a great thing! Bad for big buck labs, but great for us indies. I just hope the film transfer prices keep falling too... :)

Thanks for the nice words,

e não se esqueça de testar tudo muito bem, antes de começar a filmar!

Abraço!
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:laugh: Outro Abraço! Sem dúvida!... :D

Here is a recent post from Graeme (just one hour and a half ago):

«The RED Office mantra is "A camera without a workflow is a camera that doesn't sell". You don't have to worry about it not being easily editable. We have to worry about that, but you don't. It's number 1 priority next to finishing the camera itself.

Graeme»

LINK
 
Aram Bauman said:
So whats the verdict on those budgets? Is it doable for around 200k? Are you guys planning on upgrading everything with the money from the budget and are you guys renting or buying?
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My budget has gone up from 120k to 150k. I am definitely worried about workflow (being able to edit 4K realtime), and I am worried about what is going to happen if the camera dies on location. We are shooting a roadtrip movie, in California, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, so if our only camera breaks, we will be in a world of hurt. I don't know if I can fit another Red into the 150k budget. Are rental houses like redrental.com going have standy units ready to FedEx out if their cameras die in the field?

I wonder if David Newman will chime in here with some ideas about how much their 4k software (Prospect?) is going to cost? My guess is about $3,000.
 
150k budget .... you are going to have to make compromises in every aspect of production - therefore IMO at this time/day you are asking for 4k R/T editing and with current products you don't have the budget .. now that isn't saying don't shoot 4k - it's only saying to consider editing at a lower resolution ... = find a workflow that meets your $$ ... if more $$ come thru later or cineform 4k or some other product becomes available when you're in production then you could use your 4k files ..

i believe Cineform had stated that you could set up 4k editing for approx $5k using cineform ... i can tell you that Cineform prospect HD does work with HD/2k R/T today at affordable price ...
 
I agree. There's nothing wrong with shooting 4K Redcode RAW, editing offline at 480p resolution in your current hardware, then doing an online with the 4K or 2K footage. Save your money and put it into better production values (lights, sound, costumes, sets, music) which will actually make your movie look better. Editing in 4K realtime is a convenience, but it won't make the footage look better.
 
I follow the point but the needs aren't the same for all. The markets or geographics either. Different shooters mean different workflows.

Jaime, if you are in NYC and can go to any affordable post production facility to complete your work counting on that for an affordable and ease access to the task. There are others universes where THIS doesn't work like in the US or as it happens in the large centers or in the mainstream.

That's where the 4K editing and 4K post is required for so many shooters around the world. RED is our hope (or others like Cineform) and DVXuser our forum and voice.
 
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donatello said:
150k budget .... you are going to have to make compromises in every aspect of production - therefore IMO at this time/day you are asking for 4k R/T editing and with current products you don't have the budget .. now that isn't saying don't shoot 4k - it's only saying to consider editing at a lower resolution ... = find a workflow that meets your $$ ... if more $$ come thru later or cineform 4k or some other product becomes available when you're in production then you could use your 4k files ..

i believe Cineform had stated that you could set up 4k editing for approx $5k using cineform ... i can tell you that Cineform prospect HD does work with HD/2k R/T today at affordable price ...
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Yes, I plan to use Cineform's 4K codec unless it's just too expensive, or unless there is a cheaper, simpler solution (maybe from RED itself?) The thing is, the way I work, I've got to be able to edit my own footage native. My HVX200>Cineform Aspect HD>Premiere Pro 2.0 workflow is amazing and super effective for shooting on location and for doing all the post myself.

David has stated that a $5,000 PC (which is what I basically bought a few months ago) can edit 4K compressed realtime, so I've set aside a part of the new budget to upgrade my current PC system (new processor, a lot more RAM, more storage, bigger monitor, etc).
 
I feel like the slick solution is a classic offline/online workflow using RedCine as the core enabling tool. DVCPRO-HD does have non-square pixel issues but it looks quite good considering its modest size and seems a fine option for offline editorial. Perhaps Cineform is even better. In any case, the storage for the REDCODE RAW data is not a big economic issue and rendering times for the online full rez master may just be part of the reality of lower budget filmmaking. What is the best delivery codec? JPEG 2000 is the DCI standard, does anyone know if there will be concantenation issues going from REDCODE to J2K since they are both wavelet based?

Would I schedule a feature shoot in the summer of 2007 with the RedOne? Nothing against the Red Team, but no frakkin' way. If you have the other elements necessary to do a feature for $200K shoot it on the HVX/M2 rig and spend any savings on things you can see in the frame.

Also, without asking you to reveal too much about your project, to get a valid answer about what a reasonable budget is you need to seperate out the camera/media/post side from the rest of your needs (sets, actors, etc). Oh, and if you want to use copyrighted music, you better add another $100K plus.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19
 
"JPEG 2000 is the DCI standard, does anyone know if there will be concantenation issues going from REDCODE to J2K since they are both wavelet based?" Most probably not. There's no 8x8 pixel block issues.

Graeme
 
alacritymedia said:
Would I schedule a feature shoot in the summer of 2007 with the RedOne? Nothing against the Red Team, but no frakkin' way. If you have the other elements necessary to do a feature for $200K shoot it on the HVX/M2 rig and spend any savings on things you can see in the frame.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19
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Well I own and HVX now but I don't want to shoot at a resolution lower than 1080p, and I want to use a full-size chip like the RED or Genesis, PLUS it has to be able to overcrank (which rules out the F950, Varicam, etc). I understand that trying shoot a feature on the RED next Sept is pushing it, and is risky, so I am trying to keep up with the news here, as well as making backup plans, like considering the Silicon Image CMOS 1080p camera or, god forbid, 35mm.
 
Emanuel said:
:laugh: Outro Abraço! Sem dúvida!... :D

Here is a recent post from Graeme (just one hour and a half ago):

«The RED Office mantra is "A camera without a workflow is a camera that doesn't sell". You don't have to worry about it not being easily editable. We have to worry about that, but you don't. It's number 1 priority next to finishing the camera itself.

Graeme»

LINK
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hehehe, I trust graeme - I really do!
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
"JPEG 2000 is the DCI standard, does anyone know if there will be concantenation issues going from REDCODE to J2K since they are both wavelet based?" Most probably not. There's no 8x8 pixel block issues.
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Thanks Graeme. I will be happy to see concantenation issues relegated to the dustbins of history. I will never get back the hours I spent trying to explain the concept (poorly, I must admit) to non-technical folks who so often wanted to just have me "take it off the DVD" instead of making the effort to get me the Beta or DVCAM masters for a project destined for DVD (MPEG-2) release.

On Tom's issue of why the HVX/M2 option doesn't suit him - I feel your pain my friend. Don't get me started on the poor low light results with that package, especially since we are on a Red thread rather than an HVX one. Ultimately your blood pressure is your own responsibility, but, unless this is the last feature you ever intend to make, then you better have a back up plan you can resort to very quickly. The SI camera might be your best fall back or maybe you can get a deal on a Varicam (which will overcrank to 60fps). As I read my own words I am struck by just how hungry the market is for the RedOne.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19
 
I don't think the new Varicam can shoot 1080p overcranked, though?

The only other cameras that I know of that might fit my needs would be the Genesis, Arri D-20, or Dalsa, but those are probably way out of my price range, plus the Dalsa is just too big.

Another option I am thinking of is renting the RED from a rental house, so if it breaks it will be on the rental house to swap me out a new one quickly.
 
Does Genny qualify for the "first-time filmmaker" program at Panavision? Dave K. are you out there?

:)

Really, aside from compositing and SFX-related work, wouldn't you just conform your 4k to a 480 / 720 / 1080 offline proxy? Maybe someone at RED could discuss their 6-month-out plan for lossless post on low-no budget 4k originated films?

If the 4k resides, like the HVX's MXF files do, untouched, in a virtually linked vault during the NLE edit, how would this play into controlling our costs on higher ratio (> 10:1) long-form projects?

Thanks!

e
 
overlandfilms said:
Does Genny qualify for the "first-time filmmaker" program at Panavision? Dave K. are you out there?
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I was wondering that. Somehow, I doubt it. I think once Apocalypto comes out (and gets nominated for Best Cinematography?) those Genesis cameras are going to be in high demand. Does anyone know realistic "indie" prices at all for the Genesis for something like a 30-day shoot?
 
Thomas Mathai said:
Aren't rental houses limited to 5 units each.

You are assuming that there will be a spare Red available to rent.
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Hi,

I am sure any rental company who wanted more than 5 would find a way around that!

Stephen
 
By hook or crook! If I were a rental house, I'd let the dust settle with three units and see exactly what the demand was before jumping in too deep.

e
 
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