Old Cine Lens

O

Omar Saad

Member
For those of us who have reserved a RED camera and are cobbling together enough cash to actually buy it when our number comes up, the debate has been raging as to which still lenses to get that could best suit the new camera. Before going any further let me just say that I come from the writing and directing side of the process and over the last few months I have been on a crash course trying to learn as much as I can about the technical side via forums like this one along with a handful of books...so please bear with me.

Anyhow from what I have been reading here lately, what appears to be the biggest problem with still lenses is that they tend to breath and are potentially much more difficult to maintain focus during movement (if this is a mistaken assumption please let me know). Anyhow looking at some old cine lenses

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANGENIEUX-25-250mm-STAGE-PRIME-ZOOM-35mm-CAMERA-LENS_W0QQitemZ260045381631QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4691QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Now naturally this would not breathe like a still lens and you could ff much easier, correct? However how would it stack up optically vs a new Nikon still lens? Sharpness, contrast, etc... Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or smilar Angenieux zooms and if this one would be a good, not too expensive, alternative to using still lenses?

thanks in advance,
Omar
 
Omar Saad said:
For those of us who have reserved a RED camera and are cobbling together enough cash to actually buy it when our number comes up, the debate has been raging as to which still lenses to get that could best suit the new camera. Before going any further let me just say that I come from the writing and directing side of the process and over the last few months I have been on a crash course trying to learn as much as I can about the technical side via forums like this one along with a handful of books...so please bear with me.

Anyhow from what I have been reading here lately, what appears to be the biggest problem with still lenses is that they tend to breath and are potentially much more difficult to maintain focus during movement (if this is a mistaken assumption please let me know). Anyhow looking at some old cine lenses

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANGENIEUX-25-250mm-STAGE-PRIME-ZOOM-35mm-CAMERA-LENS_W0QQitemZ260045381631QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4691QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Now naturally this would not breathe like a still lens and you could ff much easier, correct? However how would it stack up optically vs a new Nikon still lens? Sharpness, contrast, etc... Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or smilar Angenieux zooms and if this one would be a good, not too expensive, alternative to using still lenses?

thanks in advance,
Omar
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Sorry, you are wrong, these lenses breath a lot MORE than stills lenses. This is a fairly old lens which sell from 400 dollars up, depending on their quality. As far as I can see it has a Cameflex mount, which will have to be removed and replaced by a PL mount, and will easily double the cost. A colleague of mine used this zoom for a commercial for its looks since it looks so much different than the more modern lenses; they are quite soft (but nice) and since Angenieux used some special kit between the lens parts some get a yellowish color over time.

Mick van Rossum NSC
Red #451
Zoom # 206
 
Wow this would breathe more than a still lense! Glad I asked. So aaton31 in your estimation if you had to choose between an old Angenieux zoom and a new Nikon still zoom for RED, you'd go for the Nikon?

thanks,
Omar
 
aaton31 said:
Sorry, you are wrong, these lenses breath a lot MORE than stills lenses.
Click to expand...
as rule of thumb: compared to cinema primes yes, compared to photo stills, no.

aaton31 said:
This is a fairly old lens which sell from 400 dollars up, depending on their quality.
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the angenieux 25-250 is a evergreen, it is still in production and is and was used in uncountable highly acclaimed movies. rental prices in germany are 250-400 euro/day.

the actual 3.2er are ~10-20.000, the 3.9er ~1000-5000 typically, but they can go up to ~10.000 and sometimes found ~500, but then....
be VERY VERY careful when buying old lenses, as they can have fungus, damaged backfocus, scratches, mechanical defects, can be exposed to shock (stunts etc) which can make em loose their planar focus etc.

angenieux WILL bring them back to perfect shape, but that service can cost several thousand, and it can take a good month.

when the angie 25-250 is in a good state it will give you a -superb- image. breathing is stronger than on actual angenieux optimos, cooke varotals or zeiss zooms.

aaton31 said:
As far as I can see it has a Cameflex mount, which will have to be removed and replaced by a PL mount, and will easily double the cost.
Click to expand...
adapter/conversion should be 300-1000$. lesbosher in the UK is a good shop for such conversions.

aaton31 said:
A colleague of mine used this zoom for a commercial for its looks since it looks so much different than the more modern lenses; they are quite soft (but nice)
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-important to know- the angenieux 25-250 exists in a sharp and softer version, which also have different t/f stops. HR and HS, different coatings. f3.2/3.5 and sharper/softer.

aaton31 said:
since Angenieux used some special kit between the lens parts some get a yellowish color over time.
Click to expand...
i am surprised to hear this, actually i hear this for the first time at all, after thousands of hours shot on angenieux.

as we own and operate angenieux top-lenses dating from 1980-2005, 35mm, 16mm, 2/3 HD, and not a single one of them showns any color - indeed, we love them for their totally neutral images.

anyhow, we always have all our angenieux lenses serviced (brilliant service at angenieux btw).

i am familar with the -old lense is getting yellow- , but only from our canon-glass.

btw: if "newcomers" in the berlin area are interested in lenses and have questions - feel free to contact me. we have zeiss prime HS 1.2 set S16, several zeiss 35mm primes, angenieux 25-250 35mm, 9.5-59 16mm, 5.3-53 HD2/3, 7.8-208 HD2/3, canon S16 zooms and some more stuff.

When the gear is not in production/rental/training, you can have a look at it and try it out here and have nice little free cup of coffee/tea. Cameras here are sony cinealta and arri S16 & 35.
 
laguun said:
i am surprised to hear this, actually i hear this for the first time at all, after thousands of hours shot on angenieux.

as we own and operate angenieux top-lenses dating from 1980-2005, 35mm, 16mm, 2/3 HD, and not a single one of them showns any color - indeed, we love them for their totally neutral images.

anyhow, we always have all our angenieux lenses serviced (brilliant service at angenieux btw).
Click to expand...

I've seen the yellowing once in an older 16mm 12-120. It was unserviced and unloved. I thought it may have been the early stages of a fungus.

I've never seen the yellowing in Canon.

I believe I used this exact older 25-250 many years ago, don't know if it was the sharp or soft version, (my guess is sharp) it was on a III or IIc. Thought it seemed acceptable for it's production era, (relatively neutral, reasonable sharp.. except at 220-250mm, where I thought it mushed down a bit) it should not be confused with Angenieux's more modern cine lenses which are very, very nice. I highly recommend the newest 35mm Optimos.

I.
 
Great info Laguun, I would not argue with someone with so much Angenieux experience as your company does ! An old cameratech here told me the story about the yellowish color change, however he was mentioning the 12-120 in particular, a lens I owned as I have owned the 10-150 and the 9,5-57 as well. It would be great if there would be some kind of database with all the different types of angenieux lenses which are around, especially for all the people looking for available lenses for the RED at the time the camera ships.

Mick van Rossum NSC

Red #451
18-85 # 210
Zeiss 16-135/2.1
Canon 50-300
Canon 7-63
Lots of other stuff
 
laguun said:
-important to know- the angenieux 25-250 exists in a sharp and softer version, which also have different t/f stops. HR and HS, different coatings. f3.2/3.5 and sharper/softer.
Click to expand...
And for the 20-120 zoom lens, is there the same rule on different models? Sharper/softer?

i am surprised to hear this, actually i hear this for the first time at all, after thousands of hours shot on angenieux.

as we own and operate angenieux top-lenses dating from 1980-2005, 35mm, 16mm, 2/3 HD, and not a single one of them showns any color - indeed, we love them for their totally neutral images.

anyhow, we always have all our angenieux lenses serviced (brilliant service at angenieux btw).

i am familar with the -old lense is getting yellow- , but only from our canon-glass.
Click to expand...
Do you have any prior experience with the 20-120 model?
 
laguun said:
sorry emanuel, no deeper experience with the 20-120 here...
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No problem... :dankk2: anyway but if you have some general opinion from what you had been heard on this lens, your thoughts will always be welcome.
 
laguun, thank you for the info on the 25-250mm. it is certainly helpful. there seem to be a lot to look out for that makes me very wary of making a purchase like this on ebay.

Emanuel, is the 20-120mm your are referting to?

http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=107&Cat=8&Cat2=20&Cat3=29

Do you currently own one? Just wondering as it looks like an interesting possiblilty for a RED starter lens. I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience with this lens, your feedback would be very much appreciated.

thanks again,
Omar
 
No direct experience, but I've heard fairly bad things about the Angenieux 20-120mm. Like, it's extremely soft unless you want to shoot everything at T8.0.
 
Omar Saad said:
laguun, thank you for the info on the 25-250mm. it is certainly helpful. there seem to be a lot to look out for that makes me very wary of making a purchase like this on ebay.

Emanuel, is the 20-120mm your are referting to?

http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=107&Cat=8&Cat2=20&Cat3=29

Do you currently own one? Just wondering as it looks like an interesting possiblilty for a RED starter lens. I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience with this lens, your feedback would be very much appreciated.

thanks again,
Omar
Click to expand...
Omar,

Here is some info related to your questions:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=18217&st=0#entry135801

Cheers :beer:
Emanuel
 
Thanks for the link Emanuel, it is very helpful. I am encouraged by what he said about the 20-120. It's interesting...I can't seem to get a consensus on the Angenieux lenses as a whole. Obviously different zooms of the same brand will produce different results based on their specs, but none the less most people seem quick to bag on the Angenieux with only a few saying that they actually have some good old zooms.

I am new to shooting on 35mm and my realm of study and experience has been involved with writing and directing up to this point, so I am realatively green when it comes to the technical side. Anyhow I don't know how many people are in my situation but I have the impression that there are a few at least. Perhaps a lot of us would benefit if there were a thread created where various (used) entry level lenses (5k on down...I realize that this is not entry level for some people) can be listed and briefly reviewed by some of the many professionals on this board. I guess it sounds a little more complicated a task now that I write it but if it can be done it will be a tremendous resource for the large group of us making the jump to 35mm cinematography. It could help those of us who are a little less informed from spending a couple of grand on an old cine lens that is not quite up to snuff.

Just a thought.

thanks,
Omar
 
Omar,

Don't pay more than $500 for an old 20 - 120 or 25 - 250. With respect they are not good enough IMHO to use with a Red camera

Stephen
 
Thanks for the info Stephen. I will take into consideration. Do you think that there is any old cine zoom realistically available as a RED starter type lens in the $2500 range on down?

thanks,
Omar
 
Stephen,

I'm pleased to read a post from yours at my native web forum! Your presence honors this dvxuser.com family. So, I'd like to be the first one to welcome you among us.

You've been particularly helpful @cinematography.com forums and I hope to see you posting over here as well! I'm sure this community will grow up with your contribution. One day, I expect to learn with your tips coming from your own RED experience. I'm sure this will be possible and I let my best wishes on that.

Cheers :beer:
Emanuel

<PS> JFYI I leave here the Mr. Williams' website link:

http://www.stephenw.com/stephen_williams_lighting_cameraman___live_action__motion_control__sfx.htm
 
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I think many may be in the same situation as me. This being I ordered what I feel is going to be a strong preforming camera but don't have a lens to use on small projects that don't have the $$$$ to rent a decent set of lens's from a rental house. Even if a person did order the red zoom, it will be a while after the camera that it is delivered. So does anyone have any thoughts of maybe what stills lens would work best?

Now I am nervous to mention that I am a little hesitant to jump on the red lens band wagon as I am worried a few people may nail me to a cross for even questioning Red. I am feeling fairly confident in the camera system being world class. The lens situation though I question a bit. There are lens companys that have had the absolute best people in the world working for them for years not to mention years and years of company background. A lens is a very complex thing, there are a tremendous amount of variables that go into producing a near image perfect piece of glass.

Now before some people jump all over me for questioning Red don't misunderstand. I hope to hell they put out a world class lens system because if they test well at $9,500 for a zoom I will be buying one as soon as I can. I just know how much expertise goes in to creating a lens and It has been mentioned many times by the Red staff how hard an undertaking of the camera alone has been so far. So If they create some of the highest quality glass out there along with the camera, that would be incredible.

One more thing oakley sunglasses are great quality but sunglasses are a far cry from a camera zoom lens.

I sure do hope that after some cine tests my skepticism is turned inside out because if they do end up getting the glass right I am confident that it will be a great fit with the camera.
 
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