Redcine render times

earthling

earthling

Active member
I suppose this is a question for Graeme.

Red Cine allows us to shoot 2k or 4k raw (Red Raw) and then convert to what ever format we want to on-line or off-line with. That's great, but that's a lot of info (wether 2k or 4k it's a lot of info, regardless of compression). What can we expect as far as render times to convert Red Raw (4k or 2k) to another format? I'm thinking about working in DVCproHD 1080p25 (or 24), as of now I'm working on a good old G5 2x2, can you give us an estimate?

With my regards,
Damien #500
 
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Excellent question earthling. The usual response to this question is "It depends on your computer", of course this is not informative in any way. How about a benchmark for reference? This would help users determine their processing needs and budget accordingly.
Using earthlings example:
Using a Mac G5 dual 2gig
Converting 10min. of 4K raw to DVCpro 1080p would take X amount of time.
X = ?

I understand there are a myriad of possibilities in conversion. And the render times would depend on what codec is chosen for conversion. But I think an estimated conversion time using a given processing speed + specific codec would be more helpful than, "It depends on you're computer".

My apologies if this has already been answered in another thread and I missed it.
 
Estimate - no. We're still too early in development, even though development is highly accellerated, to give you a meaningful number. Things change daily here and that makes things doubly tricky!

Graeme
 
Thanks for the response Graeme, and it was quick too. Please let us know when you can. Everyone keeps talking (writing ) about the camera, but Redcine and Red Raw are just as much if not more of a revolution than Red One. Working with 4k or even 2k is not (yet) within many people's reach. So I, for one, really appreciate and admire your work. I'm in awe actually, congrats on that 100:1 compression, impressive! Any chance we could download the 4k compressed image, before resizing, to truely see what 100:1 compression is like ?

With my regards,
Damien
 
Render times from REDCINE

Render times from REDCINE

As Graeme just posted, when we have some meaningful benchmarks to share we will, but not until we have complete REDCINE coding, testing and optimization.

So apart from a request for patience, a question: do you want the option of the fastest possible render to provide only off-line quality in that DVCPRO HD codec, or do you only want a render that gives maximum quality in that DVCPRO HD codec?
 
Stuart English said:
So apart from a request for patience, a question: do you want the option of the fastest possible render to provide only off-line quality in that DVCPRO HD codec, or do you only want a render that gives maximum quality in that DVCPRO HD codec?
Click to expand...
Ideally, we'd get the choice in REDCINE. A dialog box that asks that same question. We get to pick whether speed or quality is the priority, and the software does its thing accordingly.
 
Thanks for responding Graeme and Stuart. For spot work the turn around time is extremely short, so having the ability to quickly render out a low res version of all the footage would be great. For finishing, only the shots used in the edit would be downconverted at full res. A workflow similar to shooting on film - doing a one light transfer for offline and doing the final transfer using the EDL and a Spirit.

The part I'm unclear about is how this would work with software compression. In my limited experience with compression it seems that the more an image is compressed the more computations that need to take place - meaning longer render times. Can we have our cake and eat it too? Low res files quickly rendered out? I guess I should leave all the fancy algorithms to Stuart and the workflow team.
 
Stuart,

Regarding your question about the want for a fast DVCPROHD offline vs. a high-quality DVCPROHD offline, obviously we want both at the same time! If it's a trade off, a choice would be great.

One thing I really would like to have is the ability to create offlines rapidly for set previews. Editing on set is really an amazing advantage in production for matching placement of actors and elements in shots. P2 has made this pretty simple but I have had great success in the past capturing from the Varicam direct to the computer. If you have an editor dedicated to doing this while you work, it is AMAZING.

On the other hand, a quality DVCPROHD version that is a slower transfer would be great for offline editing in the studio. Even if the 4K/2K thing becomes more affordable in the next year, the reality is that most people handling HD in something like FCP are set up to get good results and realtime effects with something like DVCPROHD in 1080. I have found DVCPROHD to be good for previews of color correction and to be generally fast to render and work with. Until we get a better offline format for FCP, we need high quality on this especially when the 1080p version may be used to make test screenings or other sorts of evaluations.
 
i think a number of people are planning on offlining in dvcpro hd, so a quick "offline quality" render would be stellar.
 
The workflow is definitely a bit of a mystery to me--as someone who only took up independent DV filmmaking in the past year, I just haven't had the exposure to seeing how the pros handle such things. Everything I've learned has been self-taught. And these workflow questions seem pretty cutting edge--so I don't suppose there's a book/guide that talks about the basics of workflow with HD. If not, I bet there's a market for some of you gurus to exploit here. As more of us DV guys contemplate the switch to HD, there's a lot of basic questions to be answered. For example, I don't know whether I will even be able do any effects work during the lower-res offline, or whether that stage is reserved simply for the picture edit (even though many of my Avid AVX effects are considered "resolution independent"...but surely they need to be using the correct number of pixels to get the final image right?).

In DV, obviously, I do it all--edit, effects, transitions--at the same time, whenever I want. There is no offline. Sometimes I don't even know if I want a clip or scene until after I've tweaked it and played with it. With Red will I have to do effects and transitions and such only in the final output resolution? Or can I do that at the offline stage. Yes, you can probably tell I don't quite get this stuff yet.
 
Elo Graeme and Stuart, thanks for the answears to earthling and your inquiry to know what we would like to see in REDCINE.

If the user could have the choise, it would be of course the best. But if I had to choose one, I would say quick render, as, already said, it is for "offline quality"

Milksac, elo,
I am not expert and try to answear with my knowledge. I think that there is formats that are processor greedy and others not, and there is formats that require very fast bandwith and other not. The formats that are not compressed requires fast bantwith. Format that are processor greedy are those that needs calculation to be displayed, like MPEG, I think because they have reference images.
DVCPro HD is not processor greedy, but needs a bandwith of at least 100Mbits/sec
 
Graeme has already said they will let us know the benchmarks when they are ready. I see the downconvert as a potential bottleneck in the process. If the conversion process takes a really long time this could become a huge problem. One of the reasons for the rapid growth of HD is the speed of the workflow. Compared to shooting on film there's no delays for telecine when you can grade in post. You can shoot all day on Wednesday and start editing on Thursday morning. With Indie films it may not matter that a small render farm is churning away downconverting the footage for offline for a few days. But with broadcast work large slow downs in the work flow create problems with the facilities throughput - less throughput less $$. Lack of speed kills. How fast will it be??? I know, I know...patience.
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
Yes indeed, and you don't open your presents before xmas, do you?

Graeme
Click to expand...

hmmm.....

hmmmmmm.......

hmmmmmmmmm...............

i would never do that, would i?
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
Downconverting to another file is just one workflow. The codec will do some tricks of it's own too.

Graeme
Click to expand...
I don't doubt that, but while we wait for Red Raw to be available within FCP (and other editing software) conversion will be necessary.

To Stuart's question about what is the priority, speed or quality? I must say both, as options. Europe is only timidly starting HD broadcasting, and the demand for HD is going to be growing steadily, I want to be able to use my Red One to shoot for HD output. So I definitly need a high quality HD downconvert and with my current setup, DVCproHD will be my online. However for those features I'm planning, I'll just be offlining in DVCproHD, so a fast downconvert will also be needed.

Thanks guys for your hard work, at some point I expect to be told: "sorry choices had to be made, this is what you'll get", in the mean time, you know we're going to keep throwing at you all our wishes, may they come true (many are already confirmed!).

Cheers,
Damien #500 (w/zoom)
 
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