16 gig cards next summer

[dregenthal]

. . . Sometimes it's just me, the camera, and whatever's in front of me. Sometimes I need to shoot continuously for at least an hour at a time without interruption. And sometimes I'm on the go and need to be able to move to various spots quickly with minimal equipment.

Okay, so which is it -- you're shooting continiously for an hour, or you're moving to various spots quickly?

. . . If you read a magazine like Digital Videomaker, you'll see that the main problem they have with the camera is that the P2 cards don't hold enough data and they're too expensive. And these are industry people saying this.

No disrespect for the folks at (or who contribute to) Digital Videomaker, but that's definately a pub for rookies.

And you may say the HVX isn't camera for me. Well that's wrong. The camera is the one for me, but it's not time yet.

And I would agree with anyone who says that. When IS IT GOING TO BE TIME (for you)? The tools are in place, they are being used professionally on a daily basis. If you can't figure it out (which probably isn't going to happen if you've not even tried it) then you probably should be shooting tape--there are many other fine solutions available.

 

[fleaguit]

Just a quick remark from an economics major . . .

The reason why Panasonic doesn't sell the p2 cards at 800 dollars when they first come out is not because it's cheaper to make the product over time because more people are buying it. The reason why the price fluctuates is because of a practice in the marketing world called "Price Skimming"

The principle is this, you release a product to a market. There is a certain number of people willing to pay the highest price for it. So you set it at first at the highest price possible, and you sell to all those people. At this point you're making a larger profit margin. Then, as sales start to dip because everyone willing to pay the highest price has already purchased it, you start to lower the price. Then everyone willing to buy the product at the new lower price will go and buy it. Then, when the sales start to dip off to when everyone has bought it at a lower price, you lower it again so people willing to spend less can buy the product. This goes on and on until the profit margin lowers to Zero, meaning that the price has been lowered so much that the company selling the product can no longer make a profit.

This, and onyl this, is the reason for price changes in technology. Over time, the factors of production typically inrease (albeit negligiable in technology production.) The only time when mass production will lower the cost of a good, is if the good was first released to the market only intended for a small production. If suddenly the product went into mass production, the price could be lowered due to lower costs associated with such a production, so long as there was a demand for the good.

Ok, enough eco talk. P2 is pretty sweet (except for goddamned dropped frames.) Just shot a feature on the HVX and we loved it. I still get excited looking at the images we were able to capture with this camera. And yeah, it's a pain having to offload cards, BUT it's worth it to be able to get this quality, at this price.

-Steve

 

[lpcvideo1]

Dropped frames?

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

dropped frames?
first time I heard this complain on this forum !!!!

 

[kinohistoria]

larger capacity cards would be a God-send to verite documentary filmmakers out in the field who can't afford the luxury of carrying laptops and so forth. on the other hand, the issue would be eased if Panasonic would release a P2 store with a higher-capacity hard disk. not everyone here is shooting drammatic films, commercials, etc. where short takes and crews of assistants and studio work are the bread and butter of the workday. a friend turned to hdv for this reason, but is planning to switch to the hvx-200 as soon as Panasonic brings out either 16GB cards or a bigger P2 store.

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

I think it goes hand in hand. If a large P2 card becomes available a P2 store with a larger capacity is needed. So probably they will be introduced at the same time in the first quarter of 2007.

 

[Abaddon]

A little confused here are we?
So after all the post you've done on here bitching and moaning about the P2 workflow, cost of cards, panasonics conspiracy to fleece the consumer for every last penny etc. etc. you're telling us you dont even own the camera? Have you even tried the P2 workflow? Have you at least rented a camera, some cards, a P2 store, anything?

Why would I buy the camera when I already know it won't work for me?

Let me ask you this.

If I'm on the field and I need to shoot 5 hours of top quality footage, and I have no assistant, no P2 store, no laptop, and only 2 4GB or 2 8GB cards, how the fuk am I gonna get the job done?

Explain this to me, cuz maybe there's some secret to using the P2 cards that I'm not aware of.

 

[jpeck]

At this point in time and for what you want to do, the camera is not for you.

 

[Abaddon]

Abaddon, I don't have an assistant for quickly offloading and lugging around storage drives. Like I said, I've yet to fill up my two 4 gig P2s. 20 minutes is more than enough for me. Like I said, if I was shooting a ten hour day then yes I'd need someone to offload but one needs some sort of a crew for that kind of thing anyway.

I can't remember the last time I went out and shot only 20 minutes of anything. I always go over that.

What exactly do you shoot? I still don't think you realize how much more economical P2 is (not wasting shots reallyd does make a difference).

I shoot everything from short films to live performances. And I almost always go over at least one hour of shooting. In order to get all the footage I need, I'd have to use several 8GB cards, and I'm not interested in breaking the bank on storage.

I don't get why you're hot for Cineporter but apparently have no interest in Firestore. It's getting close to offering all the options of Cineporter and it actually has a history behind it (I won't even consider a Cineporter untill people have been testing it for a few months).

I don't care if it's a Cineporter, Firestore, or whatever. If it can record top quality footage and all frame rates, and hold a lot of data, I'll be happy with it. If the Firestore were to release a new version before or at the same time as the Cineporter, then I'd probably get that. Either way, I know it'll be a few months before I buy anything.

You name one magazine. There are tons of people who feel very differently. In general that vibe seems to come from wedding videographers and other types of limited event shooting in which case I don't think the HVX200 is the best camera in the first place.

I'm sure it's not just wedding photographers who are complaining. I've been hearing the same complaint over and over again for a long time. I know a lot of you guys like to hype up the camera, but let's be real. P2 cards are no way near as practical to use as tape. There's no way you can argue against that. Yes, the images recorded onto P2 are far superior to tape, but I'm talking about practical storage.

No matter what I'm shooting, if it's longer than 20 minutes, I need a lot of storage and I can't be popping cards every time the 4 or 8GB's are done.

 

[Abaddon]

Okay, so which is it -- you're shooting continiously for an hour, or you're moving to various spots quickly?

Dude, please. Read the post again.

No disrespect for the folks at (or who contribute to) Digital Videomaker, but that's definately a pub for rookies.

Even if that's true, does it make their opinion any less valid? Remember, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

And I would agree with anyone who says that. When IS IT GOING TO BE TIME (for you)? The tools are in place, they are being used professionally on a daily basis. If you can't figure it out (which probably isn't going to happen if you've not even tried it) then you probably should be shooting tape--there are many other fine solutions available.

Yes, the camera is being used professionally every day, so what? Here's a list of people who are raving about this camera:

1. Those who choose to pay thousands of dollars for P2 cards.
2. Those who carry external storage devices like P2 Store or laptop.
3. Those who have an assistant to offload cards every few minutes.
4. Those who only have a few cards and shoot very little.

I DON'T BELONG TO ANY OF THESE CATEGORIES!!!

I choose to hold out for a better solution. And a better solution is on the way, so I'm not crying over here.

 

[Abaddon]

Just a quick remark from an economics major . . .

The reason why Panasonic doesn't sell the p2 cards at 800 dollars when they first come out is not because it's cheaper to make the product over time because more people are buying it. The reason why the price fluctuates is because of a practice in the marketing world called "Price Skimming"

The principle is this, you release a product to a market. There is a certain number of people willing to pay the highest price for it. So you set it at first at the highest price possible, and you sell to all those people. At this point you're making a larger profit margin. Then, as sales start to dip because everyone willing to pay the highest price has already purchased it, you start to lower the price. Then everyone willing to buy the product at the new lower price will go and buy it. Then, when the sales start to dip off to when everyone has bought it at a lower price, you lower it again so people willing to spend less can buy the product. This goes on and on until the profit margin lowers to Zero, meaning that the price has been lowered so much that the company selling the product can no longer make a profit.

This, and onyl this, is the reason for price changes in technology. Over time, the factors of production typically inrease (albeit negligiable in technology production.) The only time when mass production will lower the cost of a good, is if the good was first released to the market only intended for a small production. If suddenly the product went into mass production, the price could be lowered due to lower costs associated with such a production, so long as there was a demand for the good.


-Steve

Makes total sense.

 

[esperman]

Abaddon,
it sounds to me like you've never shot the HVX or used P2 before. And thats fine. But why make such noise over a camera your not suited for?
Many of us have stated on this forum that long form live events
are better suited to a different camera. I do alot of televised live events, but of course the HVX is not suited for this for so many reasons. (no 1/3 camera is) There is no ONE camera for all production. PERIOD.

And by the way, you can always RENT 8 gig P2 cards for about 40 bucks a day, and thats alot less than what I would spend on BETA SP on DVCAM tapes for a corporate gig or TV spot.
Do some research. P2 is much faster than a tape based workflow. And storage is no big deal, one 8 gig P2, one 8.5 gig DVD-DL. I do it all the time, plus backup to external fw raid for redundancy. And it saves up physical storage room space in my office.

 

[Abaddon]

larger capacity cards would be a God-send to verite documentary filmmakers out in the field who can't afford the luxury of carrying laptops and so forth. on the other hand, the issue would be eased if Panasonic would release a P2 store with a higher-capacity hard disk. not everyone here is shooting drammatic films, commercials, etc. where short takes and crews of assistants and studio work are the bread and butter of the workday. a friend turned to hdv for this reason, but is planning to switch to the hvx-200 as soon as Panasonic brings out either 16GB cards or a bigger P2 store.

Well don't let him post his opinion around here. The HVX Kool-Aid drinkers will have him for lunch.

"What?! The 4Gb and 8GB card's aren't good enough?! Go back to Hi-8, you cave man!"

 

[esperman]

larger capacity cards would be a God-send to verite documentary filmmakers out in the field who can't afford the luxury of carrying laptops and so forth. on the other hand, the issue would be eased if Panasonic would release a P2 store with a higher-capacity hard disk. not everyone here is shooting drammatic films, commercials, etc. where short takes and crews of assistants and studio work are the bread and butter of the workday. a friend turned to hdv for this reason, but is planning to switch to the hvx-200 as soon as Panasonic brings out either 16GB cards or a bigger P2 store.

These are valid concerns. I'm using the hvx for a documentary right now. But to be honest, using 4 8 gig P2 shooting 24pn has worked great for me, and for some long interviews I've streamed to powerbook.

If I think I need more than 80 - 90 minutes straight shooting, I just rent some more P2 cards for real cheap. After all, this has been cheaper than renting a varicam and then having to deal with a tape deck too. (in this case for this particular project)

 

[Abaddon]

Abaddon,
it sounds to me like you've never shot the HVX or used P2 before.
Many of us have stated on this forum that long form live events
are better suited to a different camera. I do alot of televised live events, but of course the HVX is not suited for this for so many reasons. There is no ONE camera for all production. PERIOD.

And by the way, you can always RENT 8 gig P2 cards for about 40 bucks a day, and thats alot less than what I would spend on BETA SP on DVCAM tapes for a corporate gig or TV spot.
Do some research. P2 is much faster than a tape based workflow. And storage is no big deal, one 8 gig P2, one 8.5 gig DVD-DL. I do it all the time, plus backup to external fw raid for redundancy.

Why do you guys keep fighting me on this?

You're using the HVX now and you're happy with it. Great! Congrats!

I don't know how many times I have to explain that I love what the HVX can do but I'm not ready to buy it until shooting witrh it is as easy as shoting with the DVX, or any similar camera.

With my DVX I shot documentaries, short films, live performances, music videos, etc. Very easy because only once an hour I had to pop tape and go back to work. I'm accustomed to this convenience and I plan to stick with it.

I want the quality of footage that the HVX can provide, but I refuse to pay thousands of dollars in cards, offload devices, assistants, etc.

The solution to my problem is coming soon. I'll be ready to rock 'n roll when the time comes.

Also, I don't wanna have to treck my ass to a rental shop every time I wanna shoot something. I'm either gonna own the essentials, or I'm not doing it. I'l go to a rental shop for cranes, tracks, dollies, etc. NOT for P2 cards.

 

[esperman]

I'm not fighting with you at all, I'm just saying don't poo poo a workflow you have not yet experienced. For alot of people, tape is still the way to go. I still shoot alot of DVCAM, but more and more of my productions are being moved over to the HVX.

 

[Abaddon]

I'm not fighting with you at all, I'm just saying don't poo poo a workflow you have not yet experienced. For alot of people, tape is still the way to go. I still shoot alot of DVCAM, but more and more of my productions are being moved over to the HVX.

If you can tell me how I can take full advantage of the HVX without spending thousands in P2 cards, offload devices, etc., then I'd love to hear it. Maybe there's a trick to it that I'm not aware of.

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

Which solution are you talking about !!!!!????

Why do you guys keep fighting me on this?

You're using the HVX now and you're happy with it. Great! Congrats!

I don't know how many times I have to explain that I love what the HVX can do but I'm not ready to buy it until shooting witrh it is as easy as shoting with the DVX, or any similar camera.

With my DVX I shot documentaries, short films, live performances, music videos, etc. Very easy because only once an hour I had to pop tape and go back to work. I'm accustomed to this convenience and I plan to stick with it.

I want the quality of footage that the HVX can provide, but I refuse to pay thousands of dollars in cards, offload devices, assistants, etc.

The solution to my problem is coming soon. I'll be ready to rock 'n roll when the time comes.

Also, I don't wanna have to treck my ass to a rental shop every time I wanna shoot something. I'm either gonna own the essentials, or I'm not doing it. I'l go to a rental shop for cranes, tracks, dollies, etc. NOT for P2 cards.

 

[Abaddon]

Which solution are you talking about !!!!!????

The Cineporter or a new version of the Firestore.

 

[ozduc]

Why would I buy the camera when I already know it won't work for me?

I haven't seen anyone on here holding a gun to your head saying you have to buy this camera.

Let me ask you this.

If I'm on the field and I need to shoot 5 hours of top quality footage, and I have no assistant, no P2 store, no laptop, and only 2 4GB or 2 8GB cards, how the fuk am I gonna get the job done?

You're not with this camera so why do you bother to complain about it? Get yourself a HDV camera that you can pop tapes in and out of all day long.

So tell me this. Are all these jobs you speak of hypothetical, or are you actually out in the field shooting 5 hours of footage a day?
If you are, what camera are you shooting with and what format?
Do you own a camera now, if so what type?
Is this a hobby or are you getting paid to shoot 5 hours of footage a day?
If it is a hobby then I can totally understand your reluctance to jump on the P2 bandwagon as it is an expensive proposition.
It is not the be all and end all as far as acquisition and workflow but for some people it is a much better solution than tape based formats and for those who are making money from their equipment purchases it seems to be worth the initial expense.