1k Bubble Girl video up

Well, I would agree that the most visible artifact is the aliasing.
It's pretty obvious that going from 4.9k to 1k, demand a lot from the algorithm in use, and any aliasing that maybe is invisible in a still image will be very visible when it's in a motion sequence.
As these shots were done without an optical low pass filter some amount of color aliasing will even be present in the original. I'll guess that it will even be pretty visible at 4k in the fine hair (left side) when there is no motion.

Also the movie file is still in Adobe RGB (1998) color space, but without a profile attached. I will be so bold to say that it would be better to do a colorspace conversion to sRGB for these motion display purposes, as that, while causing some colors to be out of gamut and clip, would show a more exact replication on the computer screen. Quicktime doesn't seem to do the correct color space conversion, at least on my system.

Here is a sample:
The upper image is the 4k jpg in Adobe RGB (1998) colorspace in a color managed application.
In the lower part, the image on the left is the Bubblegum movie as it is from RED, the one on the right has been color space converted to sRGB while exporting to a new Quicktime file. This can be done in the quicktime export options dialog>effects>Colorsync.
All images are rendered thru my colorsync screen profile, so the overall look might be off. What I'm trying to show is that when converted to sRGB it (pretty much) matches the color managed image.

1160561128.jpg



Regarding the noise, Jim has stated many times that there is no CMOS noise reduction in place on these early images, and the bad scaling and MJPEG compression will make it more pronounced.
 
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What would be useful for a comparison would be if RED could post the 4K still as an uncompressed TIF as they did for the green-screen shot. Then we could look at the same frame from the movie, and get a better idea of how much of what we are seeing is artifacts introduced by scaling and compression.

Certainly even with the JPEG version of the 4K still, you have to push the gamma a fair bit before the banding and noise in the blacks become problematic.

Nick
 
good idea nick!

hey danish, are you an engineer?.. i like your posts and if you know what you're talking about, i'm more comfortable now..

but i have a doubt: why isn't the same occurring with any native film footage that I could test?.. (just because isn't it 4k scaling related? like it happens with all the 1080/720 trailers stuff etc.. maybe graeme may answer on this one) unless if higher compressed.. and this is only a 8 sec. 72.5MB clip!

edit
a Dvinfo guy posted this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=905&d=1160492644
 
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filmmaker1977 said:
good idea nick!

hey danish, are you an engineer?.. i like your posts and if you know what you're talking about, i'm more comfortable now..

but i have a doubt: why isn't the same occurring with any native film footage that I could test?.. (just because isn't it scaling related? like it happens with all the 1080/720 trailers stuff etc.. maybe graeme may answer on this one) unless if higher compressed.. and this is only a 8 sec. 72.5MB clip!

edit
a Dvinfo guy posted this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=905&d=1160492644
Click to expand...

I think its also largely due the fact that the data coming out of the CMOS sensor is pretty raw and hasnt gone through any of the oboard processing that all cameras do. Canon uses their DIGIC processor for these reasons. So I assume RED will have their own version implemented in the end.

Keep in mind these images were shot months ago, so the new tweaks and charactarisations to the chip etc are not apparant here. What we are seeing are official "Spy Images". In saying that, I cant wait for the official red shoot out.
 
The problem is that most media players are not color managed.
They just take the source RGB (or YUV) values and map them directly to the screen RGB.
Some do try to make at least the gamma correction right, but fails if the source profile isn't present.

To be color managed the source file would need to have a tag that says what color profile it's values represent, then the player app should translate that into something that will look right on your screen using the color profile of the screen (if you have that).

The solution, when color management isn't available, is to use a rendering target of an average monitor, the sRGB colorspace.
While it wont't be 100% accurate it will look pretty close.

I was just wondering why they would make a heavily compressed quicktime deliberately into Adobe RGB color space when it will look odd on 99.9% of the users mediaplayers, when you can convert it to sRGB automatically in all Quicktime export dialogs?

I mean the 16 bit tiff is cool to have in a wide gamut color space so no colors are clamped and everyone will be inside an application like Photoshop, which has strong color management. But for a low res highly compressed quicktime it would seem better to have it in sRGB.

( Please remember that English is my second laungauge, If I sound harsh or like a smartass, it's just because I want to get at least the technical meaning correct, while the politeness, or tact sometimes suffers )
 
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Anders Holck said:
( Please remember that English is my second laungauge, If I sound harsh or like a smartass, it's just because I want to get at least the technical meaning correct, while the politeness, or tact sometimes suffers )
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no worries.. the engineering is not even my second language so i asked because i don't have knowledge to know if these your thoughts are good enough for the answers that we're looking for and need.. :)
 
filmmaker1977, most of the HD trailers are 1080p scans.
I would think that the Film scans are initially intended for viewing on a HD display which use the Rec 709 color space. This is much closer to sRGB than Adobe RGB, so even without a color space conversion it would look pretty close.
But they could also just convert the Profile in Compressor, or whatever they use to compress the Apple Trailers.
 
Jannard said:
Overland... we have plently to do to build this camera without showing anything until it is ready. We have chosen to include all in the process. We do not have time to spend hours on set-up of a shot AND build REDCINE, the RED ONE, and all the accessories.
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Build the rest and leave the film art for the filmmakers.. we will know what we can shoot when we''ll put our hands in your baby..

overland, they are gear providers.. not art work providers.. btw, i didn't ever know some pretty stuff coming from a manufacturer.. (like this blondies.. U2 jarred! but not for myself-entertainment :D) do you know the sony xdcam hd's presentation?.. and they had the columbia pictures.. so, don't bother.. and let them doing their work.. don't mess up the departments..

btw, jim you can shoot all your son's friends that you can get in behalf of all of us.. he has good eye.. and good galfriends.. his girlfriends or not.. :)

edit
otherwise, she's quite intuitive (like the REDCINE strictly from the viewpoint of the red user i hope.. :D) and she is very expressive.. she was the best choice.. to you overland, i recommend you a visit to your glass local store.. but i don't believe that you can find a better option than the oakley beauties.. really beauties.. thx jj

well, re-reading that overland's magic number post:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=724775&postcount=69

i'd say.. on general, your point is worthy of notice.. it isn't the gal, that is, the content.. but the form/diversity range.. then, i add my voice over there..
 
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Anders Holck said:
filmmaker1977, most of the HD trailers are 1080p scans.
I would think that the Film scans are initially intended for viewing on a HD display which use the Rec 709 color space. This is much closer to sRGB than Adobe RGB, so even without a color space conversion it would look pretty close.
But they could also just convert the Profile in Compressor, or whatever they use to compress the Apple Trailers.
Click to expand...
yeah.. but maybe as they aren't scaled from 4k stuff, it's another story.. can it be?

because for an average of 100/150MBs for a couple of minutes rather 72.5MBs/8 sec. is a quite difference..
 
Folks, it's pretty clear that not a lot of answers will be gleaned from these first posted grabs, nor should we even spend time on it. I believe what we've been told, that the intent of all the current released clips and frames is just a well meaning "proof of concept" for the sensor and not the camera or workflow.

Everything we are seeing is similar to what lawyers call "work product", and wouldn't be made available from any other company. Human nature causes us to ask questions and push for details when we see something that is off or strange, but I don't think the team's time is best spent at this stage dealing with us, answering questions about images and techniques that are already out of date with their development. Every post in response to a question is 1 or more minutes they're NOT working. I also believe that absolutely everything we pick or dig at has been covered internally many times. They are aware.

Personally, I don't want to see "work product". I'm confident that they are on track, the sensor is a reality, the workflow is coming, etc. I think more harm than good is done by releasing this images and clips. While I think they would make fascinating viewing in the behind the scenes movie or book of the RED project, I think they don't help the RED cause with those that are naysayers or those on the fence of a RED purchase.

One example I give is the "forward the link" theory... I brag and talk up RED endlessly, yet haven't pushed those same people toward the RED Gallery to see what's on display yet. It's not that the material doesn't demonstrate that there is amazing technical potential, but it's not visually arresting to the casual viewer, and, call me crazy, I think that work in front of the RED camera released at this early stage should equal and reflect the work behind it.

Let the team do their stuff, and come back with a bounty of visual goodies after they've had the time to refine the camera and show us the workflow AND have had top professionals run the prototypes through their paces. Come NAB, show us a 5 to 10 minute mind-blowing sampler of amazing footage by amazing ASC DP's and you'll wipe the floor with the naysayers... You've already wiped the floor with us and surpassed our expectations.

Regards,
 
I think the current footage and stills are incredible. Who cares if people complain. They have a choice to buy the camera or buy something else. They can all moan, groan and criticize all they want. The more discussion regarding the camera, the better.

To Jim Jannard. It is so exciting to see a new thread topic that includes the words "new footage up." Thanks so much for sharing the development process with us. So far it is AMAZING.
 
yeah arthurs, it's easy to speak but maybe it's different when you already had a feature scheduled for the next year with this setup.. your investment as partner of this project under development.. (you're right!.. with the regular manufacturers it doesn't happen the same.. then, you can wait for the first footage when available and not necessarily under development)
 
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filmmaker1977 said:
yeah arthurs, it's easy to speak but maybe it's different when you already had a feature scheduled to the next year with this setup.. your investment as partner of this project..
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Then all the more reason to keep the development tight and spend less time having to explain and defend the parameters of in-house testing to a group of folks, don't you agree? If you are a reservation holder, I think you've seen enough from the RED team to have the necessary faith. Let them do the work they need to do, and report back when ready.

Also, is it wise to schedule a project around a camera that is not on the market, or has no firm release date scheduled? Imagine if you took Panasonic's projected time-frame from this time last year on the release of the HVX and booked your shoot in January based on that...

This is an industry where perception is everything, and every public image from the RED camera should reflect the innovation and depth of the camera itself, else it does more harm than good.

"Garage" images are wonderful and fine for in-house testing, and there's nothing wrong with a few "proof of concept" stills, but beyond that, what's the point? I don't want to see washed out green screen, I want to see the best darned green screen plate in the history of cinema, because that's what the camera has the potential to deliver...

Regards,
 
Jim... I agree with you. That green screen shot is something I would like to take back. In fact we are taking it down now. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

From this point forward, we will not show any more internal development shots. We will only post shots that can stand the scrutiny of the best trained professional. I think we have made the point that the sensor is incredible and that we are well on our way to completing the project as promised.

Jim
 
Test footage vs. Production footage. I hope people will take into account that difference.

RED has exceeded expectations so far, IMHO, and if you take into account this is 'test footage', then their track record is intact...

I've been looking for a company production camera for awhile, even to the extent of spending money on an HVX film out (which showed me it wasn't good enough, for me)... I had a DP run through some tests on mid level priced cams. Intuitively, I knew the limitations of the technology, though. I don't feel that way with this footage or camera. Maybe that's naive of me.

The true tests for this camera are around the corner. There's no doubt about that. Deep DOF, Exteriors, real world lighting, motion. But, I can be patient to see it, if it means getting the fundamentals of the camera right.

What I don't want to happen is to wait until the camera is near shipping, to see if the footage is what I expect it to be.

Concentrate on making a kick a$$ camera RED team. Focus on what's important. On the exponential development graph, you seem right on track, IMHO.
:beer:

EDIT (for Jim's post): I am dissappointed that the contingent who want to see only production footage, or those who are nervously invested in the camera, have convinced you to go into "Polished Only Mode", Jim. Oh well

RED #'s rebel with a clue
 
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How about a happy medium?

How about a happy medium?

I think the posting of early wip footage is extremely beneficial and I'm sure you learn something from the feedback and we all certainly enjoy the participation.

How about a "happy medium"? Post the super polished images on Red.com and if you have any work in progress footage you'ld like to share with your hard core fans, or to get feedback on--just post the torrent links in the forums that we all now check religiously and we'll find them?

Those looking for pre-sales info, go to red.com and see the polished samples, and we still get to participate?
 
i hope this doesnt mean we wont get to see more test footage, my friends and i have been dying for some exterior stuff to be uploaded.. also the production stuff is the best, it doesnt even fit into it for me at all whether the production stuff holds up to the scrutiny, i just think its awesome to see. hope it keeps coming...
 
I think we can see here the reasons why every other camera company releases actual image examples only later in the process. It was great to get the sneak peeks though. Before seeing those, I did assume that there was no actual working hardware and there would not be for the forseeable future.
 
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