Canon XL-H2!

[meta4]

"24f on the XL-H1 nets higher then 540 lines of verticle resolution, period!"

Listen I'm a canon fan, and I too would like to put this to rest, but without a visual demonstration, or scientific proof. This hasn't been put to rest. You can say what you want, but it's merely conjecture until you provide unequivocable proof.

Camcorderinfo.com speaks of using Imatest imaging software to definitively find the resolution. Let's do this and truly end this debate...scientifically.

 

[ShannonRawls]

*sigh*. (slaming my beer down) *smile*

C'mon meta my man! You say that like I am the only one who is making an 'unproven' statement. Neither is it proven that IT IS actually 540.

I mean gee wiz...there's no PROOF that the Earths core is hot. There's no PROOF that Prot really isn't from the planet K-Pax. There's no PROOF that ones mother is really their mother (I doubt most people have taken a DNA test).

Instead...........We just...uhhhh, kinda beleive it when we're told. Especially if enough people tells us.

Well I'm telling you....

"24f on the XL-H1 nets higher then 540 lines of verticle resolution, period!"

Now you can take my word for it, or not. But lemme tell you, I don't know ONE XL-H1 owner (unbiased people with no commercial interests/quotas to fill/or people to please other then themselves & their work) that will agree with saying the camera doesn't . I shot the thing to a chart 4 different times. The 1st time I did it was next to a F900 with an F900 D.I.T., and it caused the guy to go out and buy one the next day!
http://www.cinemahill.com/hidef/xlh1&f900/ (posted back in 2005)

Now I know people are gonna say "Shannon your word ain't sh!t compared to Adam Wilts" well, *shrugs* ok...whatever. beleive who you wanna beleive. Sir Isaac Newton was a genius but he still got relativity & the calculated velocity speed of a falling apple wrong. And even Adam wasn't 'sure' how to describe it.

*smile*

 

[DavidBeier]

Gotcha Dave...and I feel you 100% on your points.

Now, on what you said in quotes above.....Ya see, that's where the internet reports and discussion forum politics vs. real life testing & seeing with your own eys comes into play.

I'm guessing here (hands up), and I could be 100% wrong, but I don't think you, Mr. David Beier, has stood in a room and compared the 24f of a XL-H1 to any other 1/3" CCD camera's 24f/p on a HD monitor flipping back and forth comparing the difference in color, resolution, dynamic feel, motion cadence, rendition and overall image quality...have you?

Forget a web report
Forget what you've 'heard'
Forget what people like "SHANNON" says on the internet

But have you seen it with your own two eyeballs? because I have.....4 different times! And each time, I never had to sell 24F to the audience....I let 24F sell itself. Now, if you have seen this, then you wouldn't say "I don't think". Instead I guarantee you Big Dave (assuming you're not color blind, have 20/20 vision and completely unbiased), that you would be ROCK SOLID with your assertion and instead say "I know". Because at that very moment you would become about as rock solid as I currently am.

Your excitment over the XLH1 is slowly but surely crossing the line from cool to frightening. For the record, I have compared footage from the various cameras. I've downloaded every scrap of footage I could get from the HVX200, HD100, and XLH1 (sorry but I hate the FX1/Z1 and wasn't ever an option) and compared them on HD monitors and also taken them into post programs to blow up the image, take out the noise, and see how much actual detail is there. I've never gotten the chance to work with an XLH1 since no one has one where I am (only of the cheap HD cameras I havn't messed with) but I've done all I could to get a pretty good idea of what it can do. I don't say, "I know" because I realize that it's a personal choice how much one is willing to give for a little extra resolution.

C'mon meta my man! You say that like I am the only one who is making an 'unproven' statement. Neither is it proven that IT IS actually 540.

I mean gee wiz...there's no PROOF that the Earths core is hot. There's no PROOF that Prot really isn't from the planet K-Pax. There's no PROOF that ones mother is really their mother (I doubt most people have taken a DNA test).

Instead...........We just...uhhhh, kinda beleive it when we're told. Especially if enough people tells us.

Well I'm telling you....

You're kind of losing me. Either you have proof that it's sigifigantly more or you don't. This is just yammering. I'd really love for someone to side by side shots of the XLH1 in 60i and 24f so we can judge for ourselves (which is really the best way instead of taking anyone's word for it). I keep suggesting this on this board but no one has done so yet.

 

[ShannonRawls]

It's not excitement. It's irritation.
Like when people (who never tested the camera) say silly stuff like "60i is better then it's competition and 24f is not much over its competition"
Psshhhh, I'm like....."how do you know??". LOL it's just silly talk.
Don't say that! it's misleading and unfair to people who might beleive your guesswork. If you havn't seen it and tested it yourself, then people shouldn't lay claims on the web as if they are experts on stuff. At the very least...test the gear before you act like you know what you're talking about.
Only thing I get excited over is my wife. These cameras are just cameras. But it's important that when we discuss them we TALK WHAT WE KNOW, not what we heard or wish or think about 'em.
------------------
either i have proof or i don't? lol see .... this is what I mean. Why didn't you quote the rest of the post where I did show proof?? LOL i provide a link to quick a test that i did proving it's significantly more then 540 (along with photos) in the very same post...and yet&still you come back with that kinda reply. Just silly talk. As if people just like to hear themselves talk. Oh well, it's all good Dave, we cool. ....RED is king anyhow, so screw all these cheap handycams. *smile*

Also, side by side 60i/24f shots were done long ago (circa dec 2005) by Pete Bauer and published on the web. Look em up on DVINFO.

 

[meta4]

Hey Shannon, would you mind reposting a link to that 540+ proof (seriously).

And all I was doing was showing how to put it to bed. These are digital pixels we're talking about here. I mean, you can always eyeball it, but even Barry has warned people about that. Depends on the cameras sharpness settings...yada yada.

Imatest is a software program that examines a particular frame of video shooting a controlled subject. It then quantifies the TRUE resolution, along with many other items important to video quality.

All I'm sayin' is that if we want to put it to rest, we gotta go with science, eyeballs just don't cut it.

My eyeballs tell me the DVX is beautiful, but it ain't no H1, and that can be demonstrated with scientific resolution measurement.

Science is good

 

[DavidBeier]

It's not excitement. It's irritation.
Like when people (who never tested the camera) say silly stuff like "60i is better then it's competition and 24f is not much over its competition"
Psshhhh, I'm like....."how do you know??". LOL it's just silly talk.
Don't say that! it's misleading and unfair to people who might beleive your guesswork. If you havn't seen it and tested it yourself, then people shouldn't lay claims on the web as if they are experts on stuff. At the very least...test the gear before you act like you know what you're talking about.

Look at my origional quote Shannon. You'll not that I start off somthing along the lines of, "if Adam Wilt's and Barry's assesments of the camera is accurate..." I'm not arguing I'm an expert, I'm quoteing people who get paid to look test this gear and who have done so. I also do my best not just to take their word for it but to look at their files and images from their tests. I don't know what qualifies someone as an expert but (I don't think anyone here will dispute Barry being at least an expert ont he DVX/HVX) but I'm pretty confident that these guys a pretty good idea of what they are talking about. I'd love to do some tests on my own but, as I've said, XLH1s are hard to come by. We don't have anywhere to rent them down here and, while I know people and have worked with the HD100 and Sony FX1 and Z1, the XLH1 doesn't seem too popular (most likely because of the 9k price tag).

Only thing I get excited over is my wife.

Don't lie. Even the best of us glance at another woman from time to time .

These cameras are just cameras. But it's important that when we discuss them we TALK WHAT WE KNOW, not what we heard or wish or think about 'em.

You're never going to be able to know everything about every camer but there's a difference between looking at tests that professionals have done and looking at their data and "talking about what we heard or wish or think." I've had an HVX200 for several months and have done all kinds of tests but there's still a hell of a lot I don't KNOW about it. I KNOW you lose some fine detail when you stop down to F11 but I don't KNOW for sure if it's exactly as much as Barry's tests indicate (I'd think his estimates would be better than yours or mine). I KNOW 1080p provides a bit more resolution than 720p but I don't KNOW if it's as much or as little as some would claim. So many factors go into determining scientific stuff and much of it has to be collaberative. People need to share their results with others and others test them out and see how accurate they are. I've never blindly agreed with any of these tests. I've already asked I think 3 times on this thread for someone to do some side by side comparisons between 24f and 60i and post some grabs yet no one has. We share information and I have no problem with sharing the information that professionals have discovered (and, as I said before, explain that it's what professional tests have indicated).

either i have proof or i don't? lol see .... this is what I mean. Why didn't you quote the rest of the post where I did show proof?? LOL i provide a link to quick a test that i did proving it's significantly more then 540 (along with photos) in the very same post...and yet&still you come back with that kinda reply. Just silly talk. As if people just like to hear themselves talk.

I think Meta already explained why there are issues with that test. After all, if all we need to do is eyeball it then I've already eyeballed a hell of a lot of footage and grabs from the XLH1.

Oh well, it's all good Dave, we cool. ....RED is king anyhow, so screw all these cheap handycams. *smile*

True that. Pushing 1/3 chips to HD is amazing but it still can't compare to the real HD cameras and what RED may end up being. Still, it's what I can afford now so it's what I shoot.

Also, side by side 60i/24f shots were done long ago (circa dec 2005) by Pete Bauer and published on the web. Look em up on DVINFO.

Thanks, I'll do that.

 

[ShannonRawls]

Don't lie. Even the best of us glance at another woman from time to time .

YOU GOT ME. I better quit whiule I'm ahead! lol

 

[Anhar_Miah]

The Reason I dislike interlace is because:

In 3 Dimensional time and space curve, you have elements that are captured in TWO distinct time slices, physically speaking if zero movements occurred then interlace can capture at the combined resolution of both fields, but when movements occur, then the objects become out of phase, and no amount of interpolation can capture the state of the object as accurately as if it was imaged by a progressive method(where no time slicing occurs upon movement).

Of course all other elements of the camera system being equal.

I've tried all de-interlacing methods, in the end, I came to the cold mathematical conclusion, start of with a progressive imaging system if you want a progressive image.

Anhar

 

[Barry_Green]

I'd really love for someone to side by side shots of the XLH1 in 60i and 24f so we can judge for ourselves (which is really the best way instead of taking anyone's word for it). I keep suggesting this on this board but no one has done so yet.

No one? It's been done, over and over. Here's one example, from Pete's Scratchpad:
24F: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2024F%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

60i: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2060i%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

 

[GaryinCalifornia]

I guess this is off topic... just notice your location... did you move Barry...

 

[ShannonRawls]

if zero movements occurred then interlace can capture at the combined resolution of both fields, but when movements occur, then the objects become out of phase, and no amount of interpolation can capture the state of the object as accurately as if it was imaged by a progressive method(where no time slicing occurs upon movement).

Agreed.
However, some think the new XDCAM-HD Sony CineAlta cameras (which are interlaced CCD's too), takes both interlaced 48i images at the same moment in time and simply stitches the image together. This is why Sony feels bold enough to call it 24p even with interlaced chips. For all we know, this is how the XL-H1 does as well. But I do know if these cameras didn't employ this method then they wouldn't be able to use 1/24th shutter in 24f/p mode......but they can. The XDCAMHD cameras go down to 1/8th while the H1 goes all the way down to 1/3rd.

Me...man....I don't know what to beleive. Neither companies want to talk aout how their stuff works like Panasonic boldly did for the HVX200. Shame on them! For all I know the chips are really progressive and Sony/Canon is just playing with our heads. lol

 

[androbot2084]

It is simply untrue that the Canon XL-H1 yields the highest resolution of any HDV camcorder. In actuality the 720p60 format yields higher resolution than 1080i. The only resolution advantage that 1080i has is in static resolution. So on static test charts 1080i will yield the higher resolution. But video is all about motion. As soon as motion is introduced the resolution of 1080i goes down yet the 720p resolution remains stable and actually exceeds that of 1080i. This is because 720p60 has much better temporal resolution than 1080i. Temporal resolution is an equally valid form of resolution as is spatial resolution and contributes significantly to video quality. Simply put 720p60 delivers more pixels than 1440x1080i and results in a sharper picture.

 

[Barry_Green]

But only in 60p.

At equivalent frame rates (i.e., 24p) that argument doesn't hold.

 

[meta4]

No one? It's been done, over and over. Here's one example, from Pete's Scratchpad:
24F: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2024F%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

60i: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2060i%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

Wow, actually those two look really different. The 24f has banding in a lot of the horizontal line areas. Hmmm, obviously there's some interlacing going on, but even with a static image it's noticeable.

This makes it tough, because I've been really excited about the A1...

 

[ShannonRawls]

Instead of just giving you some files...read the whole story: http://www.geosynchrony.com/scratchpad.htm It explains allot and is much more helpful in understanding how/why the images look like that. Pete proclaims his test was thrown together, lens over 50% of the zoom range, camera settings were mismatch, autofocus was activated, etc...

I have a test that looks dramatically different. I'll upload the photos later today.

Heck you can just look at the res chart grab from a pre-recorded HDV clip on the link i have above and see that it's DRAMATICALLY different. No interlacing. No banding. and i cheated the H1 from a better score because that shot is off center & further back then it was supposed to be. yet & still, you can see the difference.

P.S.
notice pete hasn't posted a single word to his blog in 10 months. Since he got his H1 he's been busy working. *smile*

 

[ShannonRawls]

But then again.... screw these tests!!! *smile* it doesn't matter what XL-H1 owners think of 24F.

Go see the A1 for yourself when it comes out. That's the ONLY way you should make your decision! That way you can see if 24F is for you.

You should never blindly buy a camera based on web forum discussions or pre-order a piece of untested video equipment that you've never tried yourself on the showroom floor......NEVER!

 

[Barry_Green]

The 24f has banding in a lot of the horizontal line areas. Hmmm, obviously there's some interlacing going on, but even with a static image it's noticeable.

The banding is the resolution drop. Look at the arrows at the top, it's really easy to see what's happening.

I'M NOT SAYING 24F IS "BAD". It delivers a great high-res image, especially on the horizontals, and is easily the best of the interlaced/24P simulators out there. But there IS a significant res drop which makes it look like it's a single 540-line field. Graeme Nattress says it, I say it, Adam Wilt says it, and anyone who looks at the charts (which are designed to measure such a thing) will see it. But that doesn't mean 24F is unusable or troublesome; the proof is in the visual pudding. If you like the look, what else matters? Accept it for what it is, and use it if you like it, work within whatever limitations it imposes.

 

[Barry_Green]

But then again.... screw these tests!!! *smile* it doesn't matter what XL-H1 owners think of 24F.

Go see the A1 for yourself when it comes out. That's the ONLY way you should make your decision! That way you can see if 24F is for you.

You should never blindly buy a camera based on web forum discussions or pre-order a piece of untested video equipment that you've never tried yourself on the showroom floor......NEVER!

Now THAT I agree with 100%. Furthermore, I suggest that it really doesn't matter what the tests say -- if you like it, regardless of what the tests say -- then what else matters?

 

[DavidBeier]

No one? It's been done, over and over. Here's one example, from Pete's Scratchpad:
24F: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2024F%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

60i: http://www.geosynchrony.com/images/Scratchpad/H1%2060i%20rez2%20HD-20x.bmp

Very intersting stuff. ALOT of vertical resolution is lost but most of the horizontal seems to be retained. Does a perfect job of explaining why I've gotten some of my HVX200 footage to look very close to XLH1 in terms of detail in some situations but not others. It seems like in general Pansonic seems less concerned than most with horizontal resolution, using only 1280x1080 campling for 1080p. On the other hand, I guess I'd still rather retain that than lose 4:2:2 color space.

But then again.... screw these tests!!! *smile* it doesn't matter what XL-H1 owners think of 24F.

Go see the A1 for yourself when it comes out. That's the ONLY way you should make your decision! That way you can see if 24F is for you.

You should never blindly buy a camera based on web forum discussions or pre-order a piece of untested video equipment that you've never tried yourself on the showroom floor......NEVER!

Well sadly not all of us can try all the cameras. I completely agree it's the best way but sometimes you have to settle for simply looking at as much footage as possible from each. I chose the HVX200 most of all because I loved the DVX100 and I though it's footage was more pleasing than that of the other cameras.

I also think we should take more of a wait and see attitude to the A1. If it does what it says it can do it'll be amazing but I'm surprised how many are willing to pre-order just based on the tech specs.

 

[ShannonRawls]

I also think we should take more of a wait and see attitude to the A1. If it does what it says it can do it'll be amazing but I'm surprised how many are willing to pre-order just based on the tech specs.

Yea, it blows my mind.

I remember somewhere on one of these forums back in the day I made a statement to everyone that the reason the XL-H1 probably won't sell as many units as the other cameras is because people simply can't afford to buy one.......lord, i shouldn't have said that!

lol, I was beatdown for that comment. The counter-argument was that it's not about affordability. Everybody came off on me like it wasn't about the money, but rather they didn't want the XL-H1 because of the interlaced chips & 24f & HDV & this & that & blah blah blah.........

......... along comes the all new ironically "AFFORDABLE" XH-A1 and all of a sudden it's the best thing since sliced bread. The same people are ready to pre-order and praise the 24f & interlaced chips are great & hdv is wonderful & this & that & blah blah blah.

Humans are a funny species.