The RED full-meal-deal?

W

Windjammer

Active member
$17,500 for the camera body sounds good, but once you add on all the other things you need to make the RED camera operational, you’ll of course be paying a lot more (which I’m sure is still a steal considering what you’re getting). Any idea/speculation on what a full RED package might cost? I’m trying to crunch the numbers (some of you might have already done this) – here is what I’ve come up with. Please correct if any of these numbers (or guesses) are off, or if I forgot anything:

RED ONE – $17,500
RED CAGE – TBA ($5,000???)
RED RAIL – TBA ($5,000???)
RED RAID – TBA ($5,000???)
RED 18-35mm zoom lens - $9,500
RED Viewfinder – TBA ($5,000???)

TOTAL – Around $50,000???

I know it's hard to speculate at this point on the cost of an entire RED package, especially the RED team is still developing the gear. But I’d like to have a pretty good educated guess as to what the full meal deal might cost before diving in.

Any speculations?
 
Given the price of the camera I would think it more like this...
Red Rail $1500
Red Cage $1500-$2000
Red Drive $800-$1000
Red Ram $2000
Red Raid $8,000-$10,000
Viewfinder $2500-$3500

I wouldn't worry about the Red Raid right now, it's basically impossible to edit or archive Uncompressed 4K without a defense department budget.
And it seems Red code Raw will be able to handle almost anything you could throw at it and it will be able to record onto the Red drive.

Also consider that although the 18-85mm Red lens is an ideal match for the camera, it may not be available till this time next year. So consider a Nikon 17-35mm F2.8 and a 50mm & 85mm 1.4 primes instead. All three of those lenses will perform exquisitely on Red (Although with some functional limitations) and only cost about 2K for the lot.

Personally i'm starting off with the body, 2 Red drives, a Nikon Mount & probably the Red Rail if they do not offer just a Video rod attachment for the cam.
 
One thing that's always bugged me about this industry is how much little things cost. In a recent thread, somebody posted a link to a small piece of rigging that allows mounting a standard HD camera's EVF wherever you want. It was a few pieces of metal with a joint or two and a few screws... and I believe it cost over $1,000.

The rail and cage both appear to be nothing more than a few pieces of thoughtfully designed metal, carbon fiber, screws, joints and clamps. I don't mean to knock on the products - I think they're absolutely fantastic and they appear to be brilliantly designed. But - even with the strict tolerances required to make them very solid and resistant to wear - I see nothing in those parts that could justify a $1,500-$5,000 price tag.
 
I totally agree and it's been a complaint of mine in the past. Essentially, the response I received from Red employees was to not jump the gun on prices before they're posted. So, I'm holding my opinion on the cage and rail prices until they're posted. But if the prices are too high, then I'll be looking into the option of machining my own accessories. Now, I'm not a machinist, but I don't think the cage or rail system should be more than a couple hundred dollars each.
 
Hmmm.. You guys are right of course, the cost may be minimal to make fabricate such things.. But what about the 10 million plus put into the project and create the system? When are they supposed to make that money back, also how many employess does Jarred have right now that he's paying (Very well I hope) but not making a cent.. Then there's payroll insurance, medical insurance, rent, liability, THEFT, etc..

With respect, you guys are looking at this with a narrow point of view that benefits you and your wallet.. You need to look with bigger eyes than that.

Jay
 
Brook Willard said:
One thing that's always bugged me about this industry is how much little things cost.
Click to expand...

Its in other things as well... I put in a hardwood floor in my house in the living room, kitchen and hall... I swear the molding and other things costs more than the floor itself...

Same thing with a new gutter I put up... the little things like the brackets and spacers cost more or the same as all the tubing...

But one thing that I like seeing about this is the real truth about the price of the camera... its a lot more than $17,500... but if you add up your $50,000 price and add another $10,000 or more for storage... I have no clue about a monitor... but lets say you had to spend $75,000 (yes you can do it cheaper)... that still $10k over a Varicam body and $25k less than a Cine Alta body... so in truth even at 1080p you get a lot more bang for your buck...

It'd be nice to spend only a grand every two years for major upgrades... things like a sensor maybe a bit... more...

So it'd be nice to have a Big Mac Deal... zoom lens, camera, viewfinder, recording device, cage, follow focus, matte box all for $35,000...

Then in the future a red stedicam, tripod, etc...
 
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Just for the record, I understand why they often cost so much... but there's always some inflation in the price. People get so used to charging/spending that much money for equipment in this industry that it becomes standard to pay $200 for a screw.

Just like it's pretty standard to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a camera body.

Oh, wait.
 
Brook Willard said:
The rail and cage both appear to be nothing more than a few pieces of thoughtfully designed metal, carbon fiber, screws, joints and clamps. I don't mean to knock on the products - I think they're absolutely fantastic and they appear to be brilliantly designed. But - even with the strict tolerances required to make them very solid and resistant to wear - I see nothing in those parts that could justify a $1,500-$5,000 price tag.
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I couldn't agree more. And it has always been the goal of Red to deliver the highest quality equipment possible at prices that are reasonable and attainable. The camera (if you can even compare it to anything else that's out there) is a fraction of the price of its closest competitors, and their new lenses are considerably affordable for their segment as well. I don't expect overblown $1,500 matteboxes from RED, and that goes for their rail system and cages, too. Sure, the plan is to make some money back on the accessories, but they don't have to rape the customers (like every other manufacturer on the planet) to do so.

I've also said a million times that all you really need to functionally use RED is the camera body (18K), a storage magazine (1K), and a lens. As Evan has pointed out, you can even use Nikon primes until other options come out or are more affordable. That puts a powerful Red package in your hands for $20K. Yes, you can always pimp the camera out even more (you can do that with any camera), but this fallacy that in order to use RED you have to shell out $50,000 is nonsense.
 
There's nothing that says you MUST buy all the RED accessories, either...

RED ONE: $17,500
Battery & RED-DRIVE: $2500 (approx)
Zacuto Baseplate w/rods: $1,500 (approx)
Redrock Micro Follow Focus: $645
Set of 35mm SLR Nikkor lenses: $4,000 (approx)
Indie Snap HD Mattebox: $269 (assuming it fits and doesn't vignette)

So, around $27,000. Not bad for something that shoots 4K, when the nearest priced offering is f350 XDCAM-HD with 1/2" CCDs shooting 4:2:0 1080p for around $25,000 (not including lens...)
 
Personally, 17k is a LOT of money.. There will be a large number of people who will never be able to afford a camera like this. Once you pass $8,000 you are getting into a new type of customer.

I'll tell you what I want Jim to charge, I want him to charge whatever he needs in order to continue to have excellent and FAST service for REDs AFTER we've bought them. A professional company is graded on two main things: The quality of the equipment, and how well & quickly it's serviced.

Jim will charge the right amount.. It will be cheap to some and damn expensive to others. But he will make sure it's WORTH THE MONEY. That's all we can ask.. If he make it so cheap the business is not strong, then this is all a waste of money anyway.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Jim will charge the right amount.. It will be cheap to some and damn expensive to others. But he will make sure it's WORTH THE MONEY. That's all we can ask.. If he make it so cheap the business is not strong, then this is all a waste of money anyway.

Jay
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im just glad Jim has a little experience bringing those two things to market Jay :)
 
If you can have a 4K camera with the essentials for less than 50K, then I still think Red has hit a homerun here. The competition will find it tough to compete at those prices, but like anything else competition is good for the consumer.

I think the variables as far as options are concerned are the final specs for the Red monitor, viewfinder, RAID configuration, etc. As nothing has been locked in stone just yet, it's hard to know exactly what a camera "package" will cost, but I'd think that even with great pricing from Red that when all is said and done you'll be spending at least 30K if you want to own a lot of the components. Of course, renting is probably going to be an attractive option at first, especially for lenses. But again, if you are in the 30-50K range and have projects lined up, that price is still pretty darn reasonable. That's like the price of a Digibeta deck.

Steve
 
jrv3034 said:
Redrock Micro Follow Focus: $645
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What's the difference betwen the redrock follow focus and the Arri follow focus, which goes for about $4300 ?


RED + Zoom # rebel with a clue
 
This is a perfect example of the point I was making before. Whether it's $645 or $4,300, a follow focus is not a difficult piece of equipment to design and manufacture. Frankly, in my opinion, both of those are exorbitantly expensive.

But I'm just ranting. Anyways...
 
Here's an estimated camera expense breakdown if you were going to do an indy film. These numbers will vary depending on rental houses of course. But let's assume you buy the RedOne, Red Rail, Battery and the RAID system. Everything else you will need to rent. Let's just say that the camera with those accesories runs you 28K. Here's what you might spend in rentals for some high end gear. The weekly rate is based on a three day rate which some rental houses will do, especially if you'll be shooting over the course of several weeks.

Rentals Day Rate Weekly Rate

HD Monitor 225.00 750.00
35mm Zoom Lens 300.00 900.00
35mm Primes 300.00 900.00
Follow Focus 80.00 240.00
Matte Box 75.00 225.00
Filters (set) 125.00 375.00
Tripod 150.00 450.00
Extra Batteries ? ?
Cabling ? ?

No matter how you cut it, if you're going to do a movie and shoot with the best resolution, it's going to require spending a decent chunk of change. However, if you're being hired out to shoot someone else's movie, commercial, music video, etc. then your 28K investment in the camera and essentials looks pretty good because most likely these other items will fall under the budget of the production. So if you're able to get 800-1000 a day for your Red camera rig, you should be able to recoup the costs in a relatively short amount of time if you are busy.

I know this scenario won't apply to everyone, as people will be using this camera differently and in various markets, but sometimes it's good to see some numbers thrown out there to put everything in perspective.

I can easily see people putting together some affordable packages, i.e. using the still lens adapter, getting some affordable third party accesories such as follow focus, matteboxes, etc and doing some nice work. The fact that Red has designed this in a way that it can be modular and accept third party options, is going to allow those that can't afford the expensive toys, to seek out ones that make this camera feasable.

All going to depend on what you want to do with it, which is what makes this whole concept so great.

Steve
 
It is becoming normal lately for quotes of a fully functioned red one with needed extras to be somewhere around $30,000 -$50,000

No one can dispute that the price of the camera body is excellent value.

What concerns me is that the cheaper option outlined by EvinSky is being over shaddowed by the above quotes. This could be detrimental to the sale of red cameras. Some thought that once the footage was out the camera would sell in their thousands. Perhaps most will wait for the finished article but the price being mentioned for a functional red one might deter many who were considering it instead of 1/2 -2/3rds sensor cameras.

A workable camera package for under $25,000 must surely have far more potential to put red in a more reachable bracket to attain good sales.

On the other hand a $50,000 camera package limits the sale to a much more restricted bracket.

Perceptions can have an impact on sales. It is understandable that a cine package is discussed more, given that there are less uncertainties in using red with cine gear right! and in that respect everything pricewise is relatively cheap compared to "other" cine gear/cameras etc.

I happen to think that the "key area" that will enable red to get in the hands of well....more red buyers is the much cheaper still lens options that EvinSky mentions. It would be a further boost for red if they show outside footage fairly soon for sure. But if they ALSO show some footage done with say a Nikkon manual still zoom lens it would bring about an even greater boost to sales of red one. The lightweight options could drive red sales to a bigger market and that would help all of us with less cash to spend. The 2/3rds lens option is still clouded and the s16mm lens option is still pretty heavy and expensive. The prospect of using a lightweight still zoom lens at around $1500 is massively appealing surely. Talk of breathing in these lenses appear to occur whist zooming, if that is correct (only when zooming) then does it matter? Is it not the case that most people zoom merely to reach a desired focal length, would the breathing part not be edited out or is my lack of experience showing up badly here?

No one expects a still zoom or still lens to perform as good as a cine lens. But without knowing what level of performance we might expect from stll lenses with red there remains major doubt. If red could show us some footage with a still lens that doubt may be removed.

Michael
 
Mike,

I think Red sales will be fine because it's not like you'll have to spend 50K to get an image out of it. The idea is that it is scalable. To me that makes it highly attractive. I think everyone is just exploring what options they will need and figuring out what the projected costs might be. As we get closer to the first of the year, I'm sure Red will have more info on the costs of options and things of that nature. As I see it, this is all positive discussion as it will help people who are looking at buying one.

Steve
 
Can you even use the red rock with cine lenses, or is it only still lenses ?
(their gears don't look deep enough for cine lenses)

RED + Zoom # rebel with a clue
 
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