Red Rental Revenue
- Thread starter Doc Holliday
- Start date
zoostory
Well-known member
sndrk said:
Eh, technically editing for film isn't all that complicated. Just have to keep track of your keycode in AVID or cinema tools. Odds are with red you'll do what a lot of people do with HD, Genesis Footage, and 35 anyway... downconvert to DV
I don't see too many people editing rough cuts from online 2k footage in the near future, except maybe Walter Murch in his super editing farm. 
Clint Johnson
Active member
It will take a while for most rental places to make the business decision to get Red Ones and then longer yet to actually get their cameras - so there will be a window where a person could rent out their camera for a good rate to help pay for the camera. Even when the rental outfits do have a quantity of Red Ones, there will be productions like Miami Vice that used at least six Vipers and the rental house was said to be out asking anyone if they had a Viper that they pass on to Mann. Rumor has it that at least one of those Vipers was damaged on set so make sure that your get a certificate of insurance before you hand it over to anyone.
Rental houses won’t stock more cameras then they can keep busy and so will probably be amenable to topping up with private units when the demand exceeds supply. Make friends with the people at the rental houses in your area. This will also help when you have to rent lenses and HD decks. Just guessing, you might want to ask $1500 a day while they are scarce and it will probably have to drop to the $650 a day as they become more common.
Personally I will be loath to part with Red351... see, by naming it I am already anthropomorphosizing it. I will love it and cherish it and I will in fact name it Red351. Sad really.
Production companies as a group do not like owning hardware. A $200 c-stand will last for decades but they will rent rather than own so I don’t think very many will be interested in buying a camera no matter how inexpensive it gets. The rental is written off immediately and for that one production while buying a hard asset is amortized out over years and multiple productions while it depreciates in value... and the accountants don’t like any of that. Some of the mid level indie companies will buy one and a smaller percentage of the really small ones (such as myself) will as well. Most everyone will rent or hire a DoP/Camera Op with their own camera.
Another place to build relationships with is your local sfx companies. Material captured 4K@4.4.4 would make life so much easier for a lot of the work they do and some of the smaller companies would be glad to rent one as needed rather than fork over the money for an in-house kit. Another benefit there is that they would probably want you to come with the camera rather than muddle through on a camera that they aren’t familiar with.
Big film productions in North America are usually union and if that is the case the production doesn’t really have the option of letting you run the camera. I’ve heard that IATSE has been fighting tooth and nail to keep even the DoP from operating the camera so I don’t think that they would look kindly at you running your camera. If you want to go with the camera you’d probably be better off targeting the independent shoots and try and make up with work days what you loose in day rate.
I’m looking at setting myself up with a Steadicam rig (well probably Glidecam V25 for monetary reasons) and the Red One as a ready-to-go rig where I can step out of the Jeep, suit up and start capturing footage. The hope is to carve out a niche as the guy to call when you need a high quality image and you need it in ten minutes. To that end I will be buying the lighter duty Glidecam Smooth Shooter in Los Angeles next month and practicing the hell out of it with my DVX100 while I wait for Red351... at which time I’ll move up to the heavier duty stabilizing rig and practice the hell out of that. I am under no delusion that this is an easy (or even rational?) path to follow but I’m going into it with my eyes wide open.
The decision is easier when there is no family to worry about and it is only myself who will be starving if I muck it up royally. Worst case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own no-budget productions, while the best case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own big budget productions.
No, actually the worst case scenario has me selling my friend Red351 to a less loving home... and that would be a truly sad day.
Rental houses won’t stock more cameras then they can keep busy and so will probably be amenable to topping up with private units when the demand exceeds supply. Make friends with the people at the rental houses in your area. This will also help when you have to rent lenses and HD decks. Just guessing, you might want to ask $1500 a day while they are scarce and it will probably have to drop to the $650 a day as they become more common.
Personally I will be loath to part with Red351... see, by naming it I am already anthropomorphosizing it. I will love it and cherish it and I will in fact name it Red351. Sad really.
Production companies as a group do not like owning hardware. A $200 c-stand will last for decades but they will rent rather than own so I don’t think very many will be interested in buying a camera no matter how inexpensive it gets. The rental is written off immediately and for that one production while buying a hard asset is amortized out over years and multiple productions while it depreciates in value... and the accountants don’t like any of that. Some of the mid level indie companies will buy one and a smaller percentage of the really small ones (such as myself) will as well. Most everyone will rent or hire a DoP/Camera Op with their own camera.
Another place to build relationships with is your local sfx companies. Material captured 4K@4.4.4 would make life so much easier for a lot of the work they do and some of the smaller companies would be glad to rent one as needed rather than fork over the money for an in-house kit. Another benefit there is that they would probably want you to come with the camera rather than muddle through on a camera that they aren’t familiar with.
Big film productions in North America are usually union and if that is the case the production doesn’t really have the option of letting you run the camera. I’ve heard that IATSE has been fighting tooth and nail to keep even the DoP from operating the camera so I don’t think that they would look kindly at you running your camera. If you want to go with the camera you’d probably be better off targeting the independent shoots and try and make up with work days what you loose in day rate.
I’m looking at setting myself up with a Steadicam rig (well probably Glidecam V25 for monetary reasons) and the Red One as a ready-to-go rig where I can step out of the Jeep, suit up and start capturing footage. The hope is to carve out a niche as the guy to call when you need a high quality image and you need it in ten minutes. To that end I will be buying the lighter duty Glidecam Smooth Shooter in Los Angeles next month and practicing the hell out of it with my DVX100 while I wait for Red351... at which time I’ll move up to the heavier duty stabilizing rig and practice the hell out of that. I am under no delusion that this is an easy (or even rational?) path to follow but I’m going into it with my eyes wide open.
The decision is easier when there is no family to worry about and it is only myself who will be starving if I muck it up royally. Worst case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own no-budget productions, while the best case scenario has me with a phenomenal camera to use on my own big budget productions.
No, actually the worst case scenario has me selling my friend Red351 to a less loving home... and that would be a truly sad day.
Jay A. Kelley
Well-known member
My Plan:
Capture RAW ; Color correct and downconvert to a good SD 4:2:2 signal.. Edit my heart out and sing happy songs
Jay
Capture RAW ; Color correct and downconvert to a good SD 4:2:2 signal.. Edit my heart out and sing happy songs
Jay
Clint Johnson said:
I have a feeling this is gonna be more important than people realize. As the camera rolls out, and your number gets hit, you will suddenly be alot of people's best friends. You should be able to pay off the RED if you rent it out pretty solid in under 2 months.
Gibby
Red Savant
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
Yes, I agree with you Jarred, but I still don't see why a $20K camera is going to rent for $850 a day like other people on this board are claiming . . . a $60K Varicam is $800 a day from most rental houses, and the $110K F950 Sony 444 camera rents for $1500-2K/day.
Now I can see an entire *package* around the RED going for $800/day with some good lenses, sticks, monitors, etc., but frankly, I think for the RED, a reasonable rate would be something on the scale of $400-500/day, 3 day weeks, etc., and then a la carte the accessories. A brand-new $20K XDCAM-HD is only $400/day from major rental houses.
Again, I know that people are saying, "Why should my 4K camera rent for the same rate as a XDCAM-HD camera", but unfortunately, they're the same price . . . while you might be able to charge a premium in the beginning, but I don't think you're going to be making any "friends" by that practice when people know you're simply using them for cash in the pocket, and quite a lot more than is reasonable for the price of the gear. Frankly, if that was me, I would only use someone like that as long as necessary, and be done with them the minute I find another outlet . . . and wouldn't recommend their services to anybody else. So acting in said manner I think won't profit in the long run, nor speaks positive about the character of that person. Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I'm not indicating that any individual on this board is going to extort people, but again, how can you justify a $20K camera body renting for more than other $20K camera bodies, and in fact renting for as much as $60-100K cameras simply by specs alone and NOT by the retail pricing of the camera.
In fact, the RED body isn't even $20K . . . it's $17.5K . . . quite a bit *cheaper* than XDCAM-HD (which is listing for $25K at B&H)!!!
Now I can see an entire *package* around the RED going for $800/day with some good lenses, sticks, monitors, etc., but frankly, I think for the RED, a reasonable rate would be something on the scale of $400-500/day, 3 day weeks, etc., and then a la carte the accessories. A brand-new $20K XDCAM-HD is only $400/day from major rental houses.
Again, I know that people are saying, "Why should my 4K camera rent for the same rate as a XDCAM-HD camera", but unfortunately, they're the same price . . . while you might be able to charge a premium in the beginning, but I don't think you're going to be making any "friends" by that practice when people know you're simply using them for cash in the pocket, and quite a lot more than is reasonable for the price of the gear. Frankly, if that was me, I would only use someone like that as long as necessary, and be done with them the minute I find another outlet . . . and wouldn't recommend their services to anybody else. So acting in said manner I think won't profit in the long run, nor speaks positive about the character of that person. Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I'm not indicating that any individual on this board is going to extort people, but again, how can you justify a $20K camera body renting for more than other $20K camera bodies, and in fact renting for as much as $60-100K cameras simply by specs alone and NOT by the retail pricing of the camera.
In fact, the RED body isn't even $20K . . . it's $17.5K . . . quite a bit *cheaper* than XDCAM-HD (which is listing for $25K at B&H)!!!
Long time lurker / seldom poster.
What a great board this is, Thanks Jarred...
and thanks to all the contributers as well.
I hope your right.
Once production and deleivery start, how many cameras are delevered at first, and how fast they continue to come may play a big part on our ROI.
Do we have any info on the projected rollout of Red?
I can't help but wonder how much time difference there will be in delivery of the first 50 reserved Red's, as opposed to the last 50?
Sam Red #81
What a great board this is, Thanks Jarred...
and thanks to all the contributers as well.
Jarred Land said:
I hope your right.
Once production and deleivery start, how many cameras are delevered at first, and how fast they continue to come may play a big part on our ROI.
Do we have any info on the projected rollout of Red?
I can't help but wonder how much time difference there will be in delivery of the first 50 reserved Red's, as opposed to the last 50?
Sam Red #81
Jason your not understanding how rental work.. its non linear. Abel rents a Varicam for $850 a day. They rent a HVX for $450 a day.. so you can see its not half the price for half the rental. They rent a SDX900 $40,000 package for $425.
Its not just based on cost. its bases on supply, and demand. Another thing you are not considering is that the Red camera is looking to shoot better quality then the frickin Genisis, Sony 900, Varicam, and Viper all put together.. so its gonna be pretty hot out of the gate..your gonna have people used to paying upto $2000 a day for those cameras looking to rent a red..
If its hard to understand all this take it out of a camera perspective.. Do a google on exotic car rentals. You will see that a $120,000 porsche will rent for 10x more than a $60,000 luxury "budget" rent a car.
Its not just based on cost. its bases on supply, and demand. Another thing you are not considering is that the Red camera is looking to shoot better quality then the frickin Genisis, Sony 900, Varicam, and Viper all put together.. so its gonna be pretty hot out of the gate..your gonna have people used to paying upto $2000 a day for those cameras looking to rent a red..
If its hard to understand all this take it out of a camera perspective.. Do a google on exotic car rentals. You will see that a $120,000 porsche will rent for 10x more than a $60,000 luxury "budget" rent a car.
oh.. and since your #81 Jason.. this is all good news to you
my wild speculation
my wild speculation
what's the news Jarred???
I can't help but read your posts and suspect that some news is coming about RED reservations being limited or a very slow production process
- both circumstances making rental of our RED rigs more attractive
do tell!!!!:dankk2:
just me guessing so shut me down if I'm wrong
rogar-BlackEye(DBG
my wild speculation
what's the news Jarred???
I can't help but read your posts and suspect that some news is coming about RED reservations being limited or a very slow production process
- both circumstances making rental of our RED rigs more attractive
do tell!!!!:dankk2:
just me guessing so shut me down if I'm wrong
rogar-BlackEye(DBG
lol nalu im not suggesting anything.. Even Apple has problems sometimes fufilling product demand at launch.. Every single camera released in the last 4 years by any company has taken them a few months to ramp up production.. you can only make things so fast. Im sure Jim and Red will do the best to get as many cameras out the door as fast as they can, but people with reservations are gonna get them first, nobody knows yet if those numbers are days or weeks between the two.
When it comes to Red I wouldn't assume anything.. things change by the hour.
When it comes to Red I wouldn't assume anything.. things change by the hour.
Ok
Ok
lol
I think my evil fantasy is for reservations to be shut down so that us RED fathful can rule the world with our exclusive RED kitsrogar-Love(DBG):
demanding high rental rates, picking and choosing jobs that encourage true artistic talent and demanding as onsite advisors a runner of exotic requestsrogar-Evil(DBG):
sorry
couldn't help myself
:beer:
Ok
lol
I think my evil fantasy is for reservations to be shut down so that us RED fathful can rule the world with our exclusive RED kits
rogar-Love(DBG): demanding high rental rates, picking and choosing jobs that encourage true artistic talent and demanding as onsite advisors a runner of exotic requests
rogar-Evil(DBG): sorry
couldn't help myself
:beer:
Anders Holck
Well-known member
"Will the real red eighty one please stand up...."
i agree that when RED 1st hits the street it will bring a premium rental price .. at some point i think rental rates will be in line with Jasons numbers after enough of em are out there for rent ...
AND at that point IMO cineAlta, XDcam ,Varicams rental prices will head downward= demand will decide on final price..
i do not plan to rent out RED 103 on any commercial job .. when i go out as DP the production will rent a camera from rental house .. i only show up with light/color temp meters ...
AND at that point IMO cineAlta, XDcam ,Varicams rental prices will head downward= demand will decide on final price..
i do not plan to rent out RED 103 on any commercial job .. when i go out as DP the production will rent a camera from rental house .. i only show up with light/color temp meters ...
Jay A. Kelley
Well-known member
Jarred what time tonight will you have the news you speak of?
Jay
Jay
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
Yeah, I'm not #81 . . . would be nice if I was, but I'm not even on the reserve list yet!
Just a bit depressing, since I am typically a renter (I don't have enough money to purchase a Varicam or F900 which I typically shoot with), to see that a RED package is going to cost as much as a F900 . . . so really no point in expecting the RED camera, I'm already paying the same costs now for HD gear.
Sure, the RED image might be "nicer", but frankly I can make great images with the F900 and custom gamma curves using the CVPFileEditor program from Sony to customize the response of the camera so it doesn't look like video.
Just making a note to anybody thinking of renting, that if you make the cost too high, there's no incentive to "jump" from established workflows . . . especially if there are quesitons on the workflow further down the line.
Just a bit depressing, since I am typically a renter (I don't have enough money to purchase a Varicam or F900 which I typically shoot with), to see that a RED package is going to cost as much as a F900 . . . so really no point in expecting the RED camera, I'm already paying the same costs now for HD gear.
Sure, the RED image might be "nicer", but frankly I can make great images with the F900 and custom gamma curves using the CVPFileEditor program from Sony to customize the response of the camera so it doesn't look like video.
Just making a note to anybody thinking of renting, that if you make the cost too high, there's no incentive to "jump" from established workflows . . . especially if there are quesitons on the workflow further down the line.
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Jay A. Kelley
Well-known member
Sam is #81 Jarred... Common mistake.. Everyone gets those guys confused...
Jay
Jay
filmmaker1977
Carbonite Member
hummm.. i know this guy from some place..Jason Rodriguez said:
ah!.. now i know.. you are undercovered here as future red shooter..
by the way, as you are here among us.. that's your opportunity to speak up about your secrets.. silicon spy..
i'd like to know what's your secret weapon to compete with red.. 2k for $12,500?.. Cineform 10-bit editing solution included?..
edit
my suggestion: announce it as soon as before 31th October.. :evil: only a joke.. but it'll work.. and your availability as ready from now since you can deliver during 2006..
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