Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1

[meta4]

Well...that does it!

Unless Panny unveils a demonstratably better unit before my money is spent...

I'm gettin' one of these puppies ASAP. I'm taking a trip to Africa in November.

I'll post some Africa HD after I get back.

Now...all I need to do is figure out how I'm gonna wait that long.

I'm gonna pray that it's street price = $3600, and that it's available first half of October.

 

[Elton]

How is the noise on the other Canon HDV,,,the XL-H1

For the 1/3" HD category it's noise level is very low, i.e very clean. And a nice feature about the camera is your lowest dB setting is -3, which I use almost always. The camera has built-in noise reduction features but they tend to take some of the texture out of the picture and make things look plastic. I've never had a use for them.

Please don't misunderstand though--it's not noise free--and you wouldn't literally want that with 8 bit video because you would get severe banding on gradients without the dither effect of noise.

I can post a few low-light clips down the road for you guys to discern noise level. What I like about it's noise pattern is that it's like a fine luma grain which doesn't seem as objectionable as chroma noise. I think it's a pleasing film-like grain in low light, and if you want to kill some of the noise, a nice little image tweak called "Black Press" can crush the blacks ever-so-slightly, which to my eye creates a pleasing contrast, but leaves enough shadow detail to be interesting and natural looking.

One little-known or appreciated benefit of the 1/3" interlace CCD's is that they generally produce a cleaner, less noisy image than the 1/3" progressives chips. It's pretty cool that Canon got the right formula for emulating/creating 24P from interlace chips; 24F really is progressive results by other means.

24F was a pretty crucial feature as to whether the camera would've been viable for filmmaking or not.

I think they nailed it.

 

[Elton]

Also -- I'd really like to know what it's like working with cineform. I've visited the site and it claims 4 streams without lag. Is this true? Or can I just plan on using PPro 2's HDV ability. (saving me $500)

Also -- How would I convert HDV 1080i to SD 4:2:2? I'm on PC, with AE 7 and PPro 2. And so far the software people have discussed looks to be FCP only.

Disjecta uses PPro2/CineForm Aspect HD and swears by it. It will capture and transcode 24F to their visually lossless codec and allow you to edit in a true 24p timeline. If you have the sufficient hard drive speed and fast PC I'm sure the RT claims of CineForm are true. But more importantly, all aspects of image correction/filtering hold up immeasureably better than the HDV codec would yield in a NLE.

If I was working with HDV on the PC, CineForm is the only route I would take currently. As a matter of fact, I am very excited to see the codec become available to FCP users this fall...but it's likely it will require an Intel Mac, at least on first release I believe.

As far as SD 4:2:2--You should be able to downconvert to an SD CineForm frame that will yield 4:2:2 color sampling, or you would simply burn SD anamorphic DVD's from a CineForm/PPro timeline.

 

[Elton]

Well...that does it!

Unless Panny unveils a demonstratably better unit before my money is spent...

I'm gettin' one of these puppies ASAP. I'm taking a trip to Africa in November.

I'll post some Africa HD after I get back.

Here's something to consider: Even if Panny delivers a 24p capable AVC camera by that time...I seriously doubt they will be able to meet the same pricepoint and endow their camera with the range of the A1's lens--which is IDEAL for nature/travel docs.

 

[Zim]

Disjecta uses PPro2 and CineForm Aspect HD and swears by it. It will capture and transcode 24F to their visually lossless codec and allow you to edit in a true 24p timeline. If you have the sufficient hard drive speed and fast PC I'm sure the RT claims of CineForm are true. But more importantly, all aspects of image correction/filtering hold up immeasureably better than the HDV codec would yield in a NLE.

If I was working with HDV on the PC, CineForm is the only route I would take currently. As a matter of fact, I am very excited to see the codec become available to FCP users this fall...but it's likely it will require an Intel Mac, at least on first release I believe.

As far as SD 4:2:2--You should be able to downconvert to an SD CineForm frame that will yield 4:2:2 color sampling, or you would simply burn SD anamorphic DVD's from a CineForm timeline.

this is my main problem at this point is computers and editing. If my G4 laptop will be able to handle it. I can get it to 2gig og memory. External hardrive etc. Might be alittle slow. I don't have FCP yet. I might just use FCE HD which I can get for $99. Then later try to upgrade to fcp

 

[Elton]

You might be stretching it to work in HD with a G4 laptop. If it's one of the faster G4's it'll be a little slow, and if you work in FCE HD you'll be converting to Apple Intermediate Codec, which is fine at its highest quality settings. The problem you'll run into is you won't be able to capture 24F in FCE HD, but you could use this method to import clips to the NLE that were coverted to AIC. :http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=492340&postcount=7

If you can swing it, I highly recommend getting a now discontinued G5 (or get one used) which are much cheaper now. And get FCP 6 which will have full 24F support and should be out this fall.

 

[tnle2]

I'm gonna pray that it's street price = $3600, and that it's available first half of October.

I wouldn't count on a street price any less than the MSRP. It would be nice, but it probably won't happen. Canon also seems to be creating a "professional products dealer network" and is requiring all dealers of the professional camcorders to only sell them at the MSRP. There are a couple of threads about this regarding the XL-H1 at DVInfo.

I'd still buy the A1 at $4K. Personally, I think the cameras are finalized. With only a month and a half left, they must already be done with manufacturing and are being put into little boxes as we speak. Come to papa little A1!

 

[Kholi]

I wouldn't count on a street price any less than the MSRP. It would be nice, but it probably won't happen. Canon also seems to be creating a "professional products dealer network" and is requiring all dealers of the professional camcorders to only sell them at the MSRP. There are a couple of threads about this regarding the XL-H1 at DVInfo.

I'd still buy the A1 at $4K. Personally, I think the cameras are finalized. With only a month and a half left, they must already be done with manufacturing and are being put into little boxes as we speak. Come to papa little A1!

Dunno about that. 3600 is far fetched, 3700-3800 is plausible and will probably happen from a few vendors.

 

[Emanuel]

Well hopefully we get some good and fair reviews before the A1 comes out.

How is the noise on the other Canon HDV,,,the XL-H1

It's organic, quite different than the macroblocking HVX. Quoting the Canon's master Barlow Elton: «What I like about it's noise pattern is that it's like a fine luma grain which doesn't seem as objectionable as chroma noise. I think it's a pleasing film-like grain in low light (...)».

The best 1/3" HD, IMHO. Truly, a digital filmmaking tool.

 

[Emanuel]

Hey
I got to see and play with this camera for a little while at the WEVA convention in vegas this past week. I didnt take any notes but I did put it in 24 mode and it looked pretty good. I didnt have a DVX directly beside it to compare but the 24 on the canon looked about the same.
I did notice something about the footage I was seeing on the LCD right away though: Noise. Im not sure what the status of this camera was though, so I dont know if this is the final product or not, though I imagine it is.
The noise was everywhere, mostly on the blacks. It wasnt hooked up to a monitor so I couldnt see what the image looked like on a regular screen. I forgot to look through the eyepiece to see if the noise could be seen through there. If anyone is on the fence about the camera, check out some footage first or play with the camera first.
I liked how it looked and how it felt, but the noise was too much for me IF that noise makes it to the footage. I dont know if that was just on the LCD or what.
Im not anti canon so I dont need any arguments here I just wanted to post my observations after groping it for a few minutes.
There were actually 2 of the cameras at the show. Also, almost everyone had an HVX on display at their booth.
Brian

:dankk2: Brian for your helpful comments.

It's not a good sign indeed. I remember the first reports about noise coming also from the first shows and from people like Michael Pappas or you Barlow. And later, it was confirmed you were right. I hope this time the story can be diiferent and you right as well. It is «wait and see». Otherwise, if the CCD block and the codec are the same than the XL-H1, how can the noise levels be another ones?

 

[TimurCivan]

hey elton this thing do 24P DV? 60i DV? 1080 60i? I may want ot use the 1080i as a slomo for SD. that could be cool. nice crispy 60P simulation. probably far better tha ndoing it ala DVX.

 

[Elton]

It's not a good sign indeed. I remember the first reports about noise coming also from the first shows and from people like Michael Pappas or you Barlow, as well. And later, it was confirmed you were right. I hope this time the story can be diiferent. It is wait and see. Otherwise, if the CCD block is the same than the XL-H1, how can the noise levels be another ones?

What I saw from the HVX wasn't commented upon until I saw it in full resolution 1080 and 720...and even then it was pre-release so judgment was withheld.

I believe some of the noise characteristics of the HVX have been tweaked a bit since the initial shipment. It's probably a better camera now then it was back in Dec. '05.

I must say though--Canon knows what's at stake. If they make a camera that doesn't basically equal the XL-H1 image qualities then it's not going to sell, and this huge market segment that's waiting for a good sub-$4K HD camera will wait for AVC or keep saving for the HVX and P2.

 

[Kholi]

I must say though--Canon knows what's at stake. If they make a camera that doesn't basically equal the XL-H1 image qualities then it's not going to sell, and this huge market segment that's waiting for a good sub-$4K HD camera will wait for AVC or keep saving for the HVX and P2.

You're damned skippy. I've got 4k waiting for an A1. If it's crappy, that 4k will sit until it turns into 6k and I'll have an HVX.

 

[Elton]

hey elton this thing do 24P DV? 60i DV? 1080 60i?

All of the above.

I may want to use the 1080i as a slomo for SD. that could be cool. nice crispy 60P simulation. probably far better tha ndoing it ala DVX.

Speaking of slow mo...this is from the same whitewater rafting footage--in 720p slow mo:http://www.realm.cc/upload/Elton/RapidsH264.mov

Shot at 1/100 shutter in 1080i, then I used Nattress FCP plug-in (it is EXCELLENT!) called "Standards Conversion"http://www.nattress.com/Products/standardsconversion/standardsconversion.htm which has a function called "Map Frames" and then chose to deinterlace "fields to frames HQ" (high quality anti-aliased) which yields a field-doubled 1080 60p clip. It downrezzes very nicely to 720p and of course, SD.

I've done this slow mo from full 1080i raw SDI and it's pretty amazing because it totally avoids motion artifacts and, believe it or not, intercuts VERY WELL with 24F in a 1080 timeline. It's almost like getting decent 1080 60p from the camera.

 

[TimurCivan]

Cool. I ahve scoured the frames in Vegas, made screengrabs.... i cant find a single frigging pixelated block. Very very nice. call me converted.

 

[Kholi]

Cool. I ahve scoured the frames in Vegas, made screengrabs.... i cant find a single frigging pixelated block. Very very nice. call me converted.

Just like that, huh? LOL. Nice.

I hate my laptop-- It's hard to get the clips to playback at the right speed. THey're always jumpy and staggered. =(

 

[Emanuel]

What I saw from the HVX wasn't commented upon until I saw it in full resolution 1080 and 720...and even then it was pre-release so judgment was withheld.

I believe some of the noise characteristics of the HVX have been tweaked a bit since the initial shipment. It's probably a better camera now then it was back in Dec. '05.

I must say though--Canon knows what's at stake. If they make a camera that doesn't basically equal the XL-H1 image qualities then it's not going to sell, and this huge market segment that's waiting for a good sub-$4K HD camera will wait for AVC or keep saving for the HVX and P2.

I hope so but the point is...the HVX is not a great pistol.

 

[TimurCivan]

the slomo is nice.

 

[TimurCivan]

Just like that, huh? LOL. Nice.

I hate my laptop-- It's hard to get the clips to playback at the right speed. THey're always jumpy and staggered. =(

im just worried about Pixelation. ive seen Mpeg2 trandsport streams in my friends house. he has digital HD cable and it looks awful. if the image is still it looks amazing. but as soon as something moves its lego city. Im glad to see the Canon has a good solid codec.

 

[filmmaker1977]

I believe some of the noise characteristics of the HVX have been tweaked a bit since the initial shipment. It's probably a better camera now then it was back in Dec. '05.

tweaks?!.. nope.. there isn't.. until the new "A" version.. this is an industry.. not a manufacturing craft..

edit
if the canon samples are noisy now, noisy will be.. (edit 2) i mean: the canon production units