Seriously, is the FS-100 ever really going to support Native mode?

DavidBeier

DavidBeier

Veteran
A big reason I've held out with this thing is because it doesn't support native recording. This means it takes far more space in 720p and I'd have to run frame extractions for variable frame rates. I'm also not sure how i'd be able to edit the footage since Avid only takes regular 720 24p rather than 24p encoded to 60i.

I hear the Focus people claim that "they're working" on getting native mode to work and would like to deliever it as a firmware upgrade. Honestly, how likely is this to happen? Is it even possible? Are they just yanking our chains or is this something that can forseeably be done in the near future?
 
You're asking the world in general, and we can't know what Focus is or isn't capable of.

But with that said, I cannot imagine that it's NOT possible. Those are some talented engineers over there, and until they flat-out make a press release saying that they'll never do it, I insist that we will see it, and I expect it'll be sooner rather than later.

In fact, while Focus is traditionally very tight-lipped about forthcoming features, Matt McEwen has already gone on record as saying that there'll be some news at IBC (which is only a couple of weeks away). I would be surprised/shocked/stunned if this news doesn't include space optimizations for recording 720/24p active-frames-only!
 
Well, just make sure that you ordered it for what it can do today. There's no guarantee it'll ever have features beyond what it currently has. I think it's exceptionally likely, but hey, that's just an opinion whereas the product is what it currently is. So if it works for you as-is, that's what you need. It may never add additional capability, but as a practical matter I'm pretty sure it will.
 
The idea here is that the Firestore should strip the duplicate frames in the DVCPRO HD stream it recieves from over the firewire interface. Just like Final Cut Pro does. The question here is if the FS100 has enough CPU power to do the operation in realtime or not. No matter what it should be possible to post process the files to remove the frames as a menu item operation like the organize P2 command.
 
I got one just for event recording/weddings...don't really need VFR. If in the future however I would be glad to download that firmware update. (If it happens)
 
David S. said:
My understanding is that unless it is the functional equivalent of a p2 card, it cannot support native.
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Well, yes and no. It would be something that's "basically the same thing" as native.

You can't put the camera in 24pN mode and expect any external firewire device to record that, no.

But you can put it in 24P mode, and then expect external firewire devices to record that AS IF IT WAS 24PN, and yes that will work. DVC Rack does it, EDIUS does it, FCP does it.

Firestore should be able to do it, hopefully. All they have to do is ignore duplicate frames and store only the active frames, and it becomes the EQUIVALENT of 24pN mode.
 
Big10media, not authorized panasonic dealer, but others have bought there in the past so I called them and they had stock. Ordered, got my tracking number, be here tomorrow.
 
But you can put it in 24P mode, and then expect external firewire devices to record that AS IF IT WAS 24PN, and yes that will work. DVC Rack does it, EDIUS does it, FCP does it.

Firestore should be able to do it, hopefully. All they have to do is ignore duplicate frames and store only the active frames, and it becomes the EQUIVALENT of 24pN mode.
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And theoretically, once this is done, these files would be identical to 24pN ones? Audio and Video still seperate, same information, ect.

I'm just curious since it's getting to be a hassle to constantly dump my P2 every 10 minutes and I'm on a limited budget. Apparently Cineporter is still a ways off (feels more like a dream these days), and the time is coming for me to decide whether I want to shell out $1100 for an 8 gig or $1800 for a FS-100. Since Avid won't remove redundant frames, it really is a big deal for me.
 
Get what you need to do the job you need done. Once you play with a FireStore or other hard disk recorder, you'll be in a much better position to know if you'd be happy with one of those or whether you should just spring for another card.
 
I am sure it is possible but I would be stunned if a firmware upgrade could tackle this. I believe the device itself would need to be smarter and I also bet you would have to manually choose the frame rate on the FS. As Barry stated, the HVX does not output 720PN over firewire so you would be relying on an external device/program to do extract the extra frames in real time.... I think that is asking WAY too much from a firmware upgrade.


ash =o)
 
I don't think so. The frames are flagged already, it's just a simple matter of the FS's processor checking for the flag. If the flag isn't present, ignore the frame.

EDIUS and FCP and DVC Rack can already do it -- they read the incoming stream and record only the active frames. I'm sure the FS100's processor would likely be adequate to the task.
 
DavidBeier said:
Since Avid won't remove redundant frames, it really is a big deal for me.
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Does Avid work with the 24pN MXF stream (redundant frames removed) from P2 (direct from camera) or P2 Store?

Months after NAB, and after taking Jarred Land's (and Jan's) advice about P2 Store being the only "proven" full P2 solution, I'm very glad I didn't wait for Cineporter or FS-100.

With two 8GB cards shooting 24pN, I've rarely had to offload a P2 card for the types of events I shoot; rather, I use the P2 Store more casually as a backup system.

These thoughts don't help you much if your workflow is different than mine, but how often did you fill a 60-min tape on any given shoot before the HVX200? I'm just wondering if it might suit your needs better to get 8GB cards and/or a P2 Store and call it good? Proven, stable, reliable...and best of all, fun! (Working natively with all HVX200 shooting modes on Axio).
John
 
Barry_Green said:
EDIUS and FCP and DVC Rack can already do it -- they read the incoming stream and record only the active frames. I'm sure the FS100's processor would likely be adequate to the task.
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Barry,
Maybe it's politically correct for you to leave Axio/PPro2 out of the "already can do it" equation, because AxioUtils 2.5 is not released to the public yet. But please...just for me....don't forget to add Axio/PPro2 to the mix when it's released. It IS doing it right now most wonderfully, but in beta.

Release is getting very close. Beta is in stabilization phase, but all HVX200 shooting modes are supported and stable.

I have seen the Matrox team do wonderful, incredible things to make suggested fixes and to support their Axio user base. I'm just really blown away. The value, the growth in options and capabilities since Axio's initial release in June 2005, the native/realtime support for an admirable list of codecs/streams/aspects/framerates, the breadth and depth of Matrox-supported effects and tools that bring added value to Premiere Pro, all provide a return on investment that is amazing. Coupled with MXF support in After Effects, it's a very smart toolset.

At the current time, Audition does not support direct MXF audio import, but right-clicking>Edit in Audition from the PPro2 timeline does launch Audition and opens the conformed native MXF mono files as .wav files for editing. Same workflow as you'd use to edit any other audio clip from PPro to Audition.
John
 
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Does Avid work with the 24pN MXF stream (redundant frames removed) from P2 (direct from camera) or P2 Store?
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This is actually the mode that Avid works best in. All one has to do is stick the 720p 24pN file into the media folder and then use the media tool in a 720 23.967 workspace. Avid however doesn't have a 720p 60i mode and doesn't have a way to remove redundant frames on import. 1080i is supported (without frame removal but that wouldn't save that much space) but not 720. So, for my workflow, native mode is rather essential.

These thoughts don't help you much if your workflow is different than mine, but how often did you fill a 60-min tape on any given shoot before the HVX200? I'm just wondering if it might suit your needs better to get 8GB cards and/or a P2 Store and call it good? Proven, stable, reliable...and best of all, fun! (Working natively with all HVX200 shooting modes on Axio).
John
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I'd actually probably get 4 4gig P2s since it's cheaper and easier to back up on DVD. That said, while having 40 minutes of record time would certainly be doible in most situations, it's not going to cut it on a long day on a film shoot. Like I said, I'm tempted just to buy more cards but finances are short and it'll be rather unfortunate if I still end up having to go with an HD solution in six months.
 
ransom said:
John, What is an Axio system running these days? thx
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That's a good question for your local integrator, which can be found on the Matrox website. Reason it's hard to say is that the certified configs, though turnkey, do vary according to computer and accessories (RAM, chipsets, graphics card), and to disk (array) subsystem and controller card.

Further, prices vary according to the Matrox cardset (it's two cards bridged together) and breakout. 3 options exist: Axio HD and Axio SD (cardset is the same but breakout box varies); and Axio LE which is almost the same cardset (only does 8-bit and does not have the same graphics processor unit (GPU) chipset; rather it relies on the computer for some of the fx processing.

That said, the prices on the cardset/bobs are roughly (I'm guessing based on known prices when I bought in March 2006) $9K for AxioHD, $7k for AxioSD and $3K for AxioLE....and when I mention those "round" numbers, I mean it's in that range but could be higher than the even number. Please call your integrator for exact pricing.

There is usually a deal on Adobe software that comes with an Axio package. By deal, I mean it's usually bundled free. I had a valid PO in my integrator's hand by the Sept 30, 2005 deadline, which provided an additional $2,500 credit for former DigiSuite owners, which I was. Due to the waiting for the dual-cores, and some dealer hocus pocus, they didn't deliver till March, but that worked in my favor, allowing me more time to earn the $$, though half of it was donor funded (I'm at a community college).

You can see I've mentioned only the cost of Axio components, but have not mentioned pricing on the turnkey system. Of course, these are variable costs based on components you choose, and based on supply/demand for those said components. So understand I can only tell you my own system cost but not what yours will cost. Also, I was an early adopter so I paid some premium pricing for my stuff....namely the twin dual-core AMD64 Opteron processors

I'm not at work right now, thus can't pull out my exact invoices, but as I recall, the pricing as of March 2006 for my system was something like this:
HPxw9300 with 2x2 Opteron 280's and PCIe; 4GB RAM; NVidia Quadro 3400; 200GB HDD; Adobe Production Suite (with Dynamic Link) and After Effects Pro bundle; AxioHD and breakout......total cost about $19,500, less rebate of $2,500 for DigiSuite tradeup offer.

Additionally, 4TB Rorke Data Galaxy HDX (dual 4Gb, has read speed of 411 MB/s) with ATTO fiber channel controller card was right around $10,000. That puts me right around $27K, but please, price your own system! In this industry, prices change quickly! And if you don't need 10-bit or HD-SDI (and with the HVX200, you don't!) you could do an AxioLE system with 2TB of storage for about $10K less than my system. But don't skimp on any of the critical components that result in realtime response. I'm getting 7 layers RT with 720/24pN footage! Of course, that varies on effects used. My test involved 1 background layer, 4 picture-in-picture layers and 2 layers full sized with 30% opacity, and that ran with no render needed.

Matrox AxioUtils upgrades are free, and you'd better believe there's a ton of value in that! 2.5 is nearly out the door and the amount of new stuff that didn't exist in 2.0 is incredible for HVX200 owners. Start comparing what has been added...compare initial release version 1.0 to 2.5, and you can't believe it has all been free to Axio users. Very incredible stuff.

Well, I could go on (and often do). I'm just so darn jazzed about it all. Yes, I realize it's a lot of money. You've got to consider your workflow, your customer base....and then consider your added productivity via realtime and output options. And if you're already a huge Adobe fan as I was, things just couldn't be better.

OK, I'll stop now.:)
John
 
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