Red Competition Running Scared?

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What I like about Red is that it is a new player and therefore not constrained by existing boundaries. It is, as someone put it, a disruptive technology, in that its aim is to shake up the existing system to enable a new class of filmmaker to have tools that are at least equal to what Hollywood productions have access to. This is good because once the tools are effectively commoditised, what matters then is storytelling. If anything, THAT is what Hollywood should be scared of ;)

It also means that with digital cinema becoming inevitable as the primary projection technology, cinemas will have access to far more non-studio features and therefore potentially have a new means of making money that doesn't take 100% of box office in the busiest part of the film's theatrical run. As an example, if I made a feature independently I could then negotiate to feed a digital copy of my film to lots of cinema chains without much cost to myself or them, in exchange for a decent cut of the profits and cutting out the traditional middle man distributors. That is the true disruptive element of having such an affordable, cinema quality camera.

My prediction (for what it's worth!) is that large blockbusters will become more of a rarity as more and more cinemas transition to digital and can therefore begin to show unique and interesting films without relying on a small subset of big players to give them the content.

Personally I am aiming for this type of distribution style because it is here that I think the vanguard of 21st century cinema will reside before long.

Red is one part of making that achievable, so thankyou Jim Jannard et al for having the vision to kick start it into high gear!
 
visceralpsyche said:
...This is good because once the tools are effectively commoditised, what matters then is storytelling. If anything, THAT is what Hollywood should be scared of ;)...

...My prediction (for what it's worth!) is that large blockbusters will become more of a rarity as more and more cinemas transition to digital and can therefore begin to show unique and interesting films without relying on a small subset of big players to give them the content...

As much as I'd like to see more diversity in the top grossing films - I'm afraid it's not quite going to work this way. I'm in love with the RED concept as much as most of us, but RED is not going to change the way that audiences behave.

People are going to see "American Pie The Sequel". Not because there's nothing else to see, but because that's what they want to see. For decades good indie film productions have been produced, but the audiences don't go for it. A big part of what makes people want to go see "Dumb and Dumber" is probably the marketing machine. And I don't think RED is going to change that.

Here's a parallel: the internet and p2p networks have to a large extent put large record companies out of play and given everyone that records music a distibution channel. But it seems to me that the majority of people are still downloading the same songs. And it's not necessarily because they're the best songs. Currently in the top downloaded songs in the iTunes store: Fergie, Jessica Simpson, Christina Aguilera...

It's going to be the same for film. Heck... the US audiences won't even watch subtitled content...

Need I say more?
 
I've got to agree with this. There are small quirky films on film today that you just aren't going to see a lot of places because the exhibitors aren't willing to "waste" screen time on them...good, bad or otherwise.
 
Well, that's just my point. It is suggested here that the reason that these non-mainstream films don't get large audiences because they're not supported by the theater owners.

But I'm saying that the reason really is that the large audience WANTS "American Pie" - like they really WANT Britney Spears, P. Diddy, and Mary J Blige covering U2. Even though they have many alternatives at their disposal.

So the theater owners merely give the audience what they want. That's the business they're in, and you can't blame them for that.
 
Mike Curtis blew it

Mike Curtis blew it

What everyone on this list is forgetting is that Mike missed one of his usual analyses in his coverage of the Red Camera.

That point is: HOW WELL WILL IT DELIVER THE PORN?

I am looking forward to making some detailed imagery with Red #142.

Just kidding. Sort of.
 
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Wow guys...

Like Greg I work in this field everyday.. I am getting RED as an addition to my AJ-SDX900, NOT a replacement.

People, RED has at least two years before it's a completed package with enough hours on it for industry professionals to run with it in the larger rental houses.. They don't stay in business by buying first year equipment from a new company.

Price does not matter. It only matters to those who cannot afford it. Believe it or not, Panavision/Genesis will not feel one little prick from RED. Why? Cause the camera is only 50% of the deal to those of us who work in this area. What matters more Jay? You ask... Good question:

CUSTOMER SERVICE! If I am out in the field and my stuff goes down, I want a replacement in hours, not days. The more money you spend, the safer you want to be. Rental houses will stay with the equipment they are prepared to stake their business on. Someday it may be RED in a few places, but not this year, and most likely not next year.

RED will do well, but the release of the camera will only be the tip of the iceberg, there is a very very long way to go.

As for the article, the guy was excited.... It happens to the best of us. I say above all else be honest and true to yourself. He was excited so he wrote it that way, right or wrong, it was honest. Perhaps the truth is nothing else he saw got him excited.. That would be an issue, wouldn't it?

As for the fighting, film makers LOVE to be right.. That's one reason they are film makers.. I am cool with those of you who think you are right, just don't tell others they are wrong unless you intend to use the utmost respect.. Always try to write to people as if they were sitting across from you... With a gun in their hand... You will find that your writing style takes on a "nicer" tone and people like you more.
One fact: This is a people business and we need each other.. It is possible to insult one guy, that may not affect you, but he may be best friends with your next boss.... Not good

Jay

RED is jumping into an old market with a lot of standards that I personally do not want to see changed overnight. I will own a RED, but by no means will it "replace" all of my current Rigs.

Jay
 
One could wager that the reason is because you have a lot of rigs. :) If I owned a $70,000 Varicam, I would feel a little unsettled about the fact that a $17,500 RED will do everything it can and more. But unless you have a real issue with the ergonomics of RED, there isn't a whole lot of reason to hold on to all of those other rigs. At least from my perspective, anyway. Given that a topic exists that's called "Red competition running scared," it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
 
Haakon said:
One could wager that the reason is because you have a lot of rigs. :) If I owned a $70,000 Varicam, I would feel a little unsettled about the fact that a $17,500 RED will do everything it can and more. But unless you have a real issue with the ergonomics of RED, there isn't a whole lot of reason to hold on to all of those other rigs. At least from my perspective, anyway. Given that a topic exists that's called "Red competition running scared," it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I agree. As a camera that you use daily why keep your other rigs. I have a dvx that I use in low-light or as a b-cam on an SD multishoot w/ my HVX, but if the HVX did lowlight just as well for ENG/Event stuff, in a single cam world, I'd sell my dvx and buy a better mattebox.

Weird thought. If I have a Nisan Titan and a Datsun, I'd sell the ***** Datsun because the Titan does all I need and because the Titan(RED) is modular, it saves me gas cause I don't have to take out the big truck all the time. Just what I need.

--Damn, I need to get me a Truck w/ AC.:(
 
You guys are speaking as though you are going to tell the client what to shoot on.

Little tidbit for you: In my world we don't tell the client the format to use, they tell us. That decision is based on what they are most comfortable with in their production path.

Why in God's name would I throw away ANY camera that my clients want to rent.. When I am working I could care less which camera is best.. I'm good enough to light them all beautifully. What I care about is which one is gving me a return on my investment. My purchase of RED is personal, not professional. As a professional I have no reason to buy a RED until clients begin to request it. As an artist I am damn excited about the possibilities of RED, but I do not expect to make any real money on it for a couple of years.

Everyone will handle things differently. I am sure RED will be great, but please do not discount other cameras cause RED is cheap and looks nice. They all look nice.. And as long as they meet the standard of the client, who cares what it's shot on?

Finally, people like tape. Hell, I like tape. I think tapeless is a cool concept, but tape is a good thing and I KNOW my clients are not yet ready to say goodbye to tape. (I know RED can record to tape, but it would be external, or I would have to dub it later.. Neither are good solutions for Run and Gun)
 
A theory

A theory

Do you suppose there's some baseline resentment going on here? I mean people almost seem HAPPY think about the demise of Sony and/or Panasonic to RED.

I would guess that people feel these companies have overcharged for their products, and like Cell Phones, or Gas prices, consumers would like to seem then taken down a notch or two and feel RED is the camera to do it.

Hmmm.. I can understand this, but somehow I don't think that will be the change that RED causes. Someone else on here said it already, if anything RED may cause these companies to skip a few versions and come out with more advanced cameras faster.

I don't see the little guys over at Sony saying (with badly dubbed american voices and martial arts type movements) Hiiii Yaaa, that Damn Jannard.. He has created ultimate camera! Our stuff sucks now! We must hide our women and children until he returns to the planet from which he came!!! RUN RUN RUN>>> GODZILLA!! :kali:

Of course, if they did say that, it would be worth RED coming out just to hear it.

:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Jay
 
I love sony products, the F950 is a beauty for certain applications.

On the other hand, the cost is ridiculous.

RED on the other hand is cutting out the middle men and promising to deliver the goods at a REVOLUTIONARY price point, who wouldn't be excited and or biased to an offer like that.

Now, sure companies like Sony Pictures won't wave their white flags in the air, afterall, what other camera would they shoot on besides either theirs or an affiliates... arri, panavision.....

But, studios that do not have an affiliation with a specfic camera company on the other hand, well, what do they have to lose but a large rental bill?

Why would any non-attatched studio choose a pricey origin, viper, f950 or genesis? Studios want nothing more than the almighty dollar, and if RED can cut costs substantially, what would restrict them from doing so?

Now sure the thing about the 950, viper, etc. is that they have a proven and accepted shooting and post workflow.

But, if RED delivers a camera comparable to the high-end competitors in visual quality, they can seal the deal by creating a bond with NLE companies. That is honestly my only worry at this point, post production with RED. Let's hope for the best.....:costumed-smiley-047
 
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Hey Blonde,

I actually think RED will have an incredible post path.. As for the studio and which camera they use.. Remember 90% of the studios RENT not buy, and once a SONY 950 is paid for, a rental house can charge as little as it wants.. Remember my friend, the average rental house is not just renting the camera, but the sound, lighting, even grip trucks and dollies in some cases.. I have seen HD packages rent for $200 per day on huge orders. After a certain point they start looking at overall profit, not price per item. That said I bet Fletcher will be the first one to rent out the camera. And I bet you a full package will run about $500 - $600 per day. Hell, the HVX rents for $300 per day in some places. Remember, the CAMERA may rent for very little, but that LENS will rent for quite a bit more.. Many users on here may want to purchase cheap starter lenses, but I promise you the rental houses won't.. They will be thinking, "with a picture like this, let's do it justice" . And, this is sad to say: It does them no good to have a high demand for RED and lose out on their other stock.. They will price RED so that it is in line with their other cameras.

Jayster

Jay
 
A rental houses profit margin for RED would be much higher than it would be with a Viper....just a thought...
 
Mr. Blonde said:
A rental houses profit margin for RED would be much higher than it would be with a Viper....just a thought...

Too true, no doubt about that blonde.. Well, maybe a little doubt. Remember RED will work best with PL mount lenses. A lot of the smaller houses don't deal in 35mm or if they do, its very little.

I guess what I am saying is: If they have to buy lenses, then it will not be so cheap.. Remember the price difference between a RED and B-stock Varicam is about $13,000.00. And where a release on TV is concerned, a 4K imager is something that may not be needed.

Jesus.. I sound so ANTI-RED.. I'M #327 DAMNIT!!! I'M A BELIEVER!

All I am saying, is RED will be fantastic, it will be a major player, but it will not be the end of anyone any time real soon. The market will adapt... It always does.. Remember when we got 100+ channels and we all thought ABC, NBC, CBS would be gone shortly.. They have changed, not died.
 
Hey Jay, don't feel bad for your little lapse of sanity in the middle of the red lunatics! Since Gregg is out, I'm glad you came to take his place as our regular straight-thinker... hehehe


Don't take it personally guys, I'm just poking fun at you and your psychosis (!!)...
 
It's fun to speculate isn't it?

Personally I don't care if RED will change the world or not. I just think it's pretty awsome to be able to take this thing, slap on some Nikon glass, shoot my picture in 2K and then be able to edit the damn thing at home...

That's the revolution. The big companies won't come falling down. You won't see pictures of Sony executives hurling themselves from Tokyo skyscraper windows..

Red won't come stomping in like Optimus Prime, guns blazing, ripping the competition apart. That's fun idealism, not realism...

But that won't stop me from shooting my 2K movie with nikon glass edited in my garage....Revolution in the hands of the individual..

The world doesn't have to change..
 
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