P2 Cards a horrible wallet invention

[David Saraceno]

Hmmmmm

 

[AshG]

Let me also add that for some apps, the P2 workflow is perfect. For music videos being shot in 720p 24pn the P2 workflow is revolutionary. I can get 2 takes of a song on each card, break down for another setup while I dump the cards and keep going. Hand the HDD to the editor when I am done and he is ready to edit. Also, the need for keeping archival master tapes on music videos is limited and generally not needed.





ash =o)

 

[J.R. Hudson]

This is the future before our very eyes; it will get cheaper and the amount of available storage will become greater in due time (way sooner than 10 or 15 years).

Quit complaining about this gift from the DV Gods.

 

[TedRR]

Thats a bit stupid in my opinion. Does anyone else feel the same way?

The way I see it is this.
Panasonic is darned near GIVING AWAY A $30,000.00 camera.
Panasonic made a corporate decision to bypass HDV and go with a tapeless technology. The downside is that the technology was new and expensive.

Since P2 was so expensive to develop and retail, last year many including myself laughed at the price. Until...the HVX.

Due to the "any format" capabilities of the HVX and the artificial low price, I stopped laughing and bought into P2 hook line and sinker.

So next time we want to cry about the "price per minute", remember we got the HVX at less then 1/3 of it's value due to Panasonic's marketing strategy. Makes the P2 reletively cheap.
I'm thrilled to be part of the revolution.
JMHO.

 

[Nathyn]

I don't understand. Isn't a 100GB firestore available for this camera? So what's the problem? This cost about two grand right? So for a little over the price of 4 4gb P2 card you can get the firestore and tons more memory and everyone's happy. Personally I'm waiting to see what Red is all about. Right now I'm mostly focusing on the either of the other three non-HVX cameras.

The JVC HD200 (coming soon) and the Sony FX1 are both on my radar. The Canon at 8 grand is looking good too (I can buy this and the deck) I'll consider Red based on street price but I have an associate with the HVX and a P2 card anyway so for me it's no big deal. Honestly I do want to shoot a film in 1080i one day (Sony HDV) and for my 720p work I can use the JVC but again I really do like the Canon. The JVC may win out though simply because of the flip out monitor any lower price and true 24p.

I want to look at each before I buy. The only reason I even consider the HVX200 is because of special effects considerations but when I do get into heavy special effects I'll buy one then if I have to.

I want to release my next film (after Wages of Sin) on HD-DVD so I do plan to shoot HDV real soon. Another thing from what I understand the 1080p on the Panasonic seems to be uprezing, so what not shoot at 720p and get more space on the P2 card?

And everyone seems to say Canon's image is the best. This is making me lean toward the Canon and a small field monitor. Is there a good HD monitor (or one that can show HD) for the Canon camera? I mean the kind that can sit atop the camera? Anyone know?

-Nate

 

[t-h-e-w-h-o]

i was under the impression that the firestore was just a direct cable style link that goes into a laptop/workstation? it would be awsome if it was a mountable hard drive that rested on top of the hvx...

 

[dregenthal]

i was under the impression that the firestore was just a direct cable style link that goes into a laptop/workstation? it would be awsome if it was a mountable hard drive that rested on top of the hvx...

Well than, man, are you going to be happy!

 

[dregenthal]

. . . and the Sony FX1 are both on my radar. The Canon at 8 grand is looking good too (I can buy this and the deck)

-Nate

yeah but then you'll still have only HDV . . . what a bargain!

 

[AshG]

How on earth do you figure the HVX as a $30,000 camera? It is a great low cost HD camera but it is still 1/3" CCDs, same with the XLH, great to have HD-SDI but it is still 1/3" CCD. Cameras are really classified more by sensor size, not resolution or codec. I think it is funny that people call the HVX a mini-Varicam, to me that is like calling a Z1u a mini F900... They are GREAT cameras for the price but they are not replacements for their bigger counterparts. For some projects, they may serve as a low cost alternative however...


ash =o)

 

[Cynic821]

assume you dont have one AshG?

 

[David Jimerson]

The HVX gives you the DVX's picture . . . in HD. That was my first and until recently only question about the camera. I didn't want the PD150's picture in HD. I didn't want the JY500's picture in HD. I didn't want the XL2's picture in HD. I wanted the DVX's.

But then I started USING the HVX. Oh, my stars and garters, I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone who's interested in having the best tool for narrative film would even consider another camera. True variable framerates. Film-camera style shutter control (by degree instead of by fraction of a second). Loop recording. One-stop and interval recording. Unbelievable ease in navigating and working with recorded clips. Easy DELETION of clips (can't do THAT with tape). And so much of this is doable ONLY because of the P2 cards, it no longer makes sense to me to do it any other way. Expensive? Yeah. Worth it? Unreserved OH, YES.

I mean, like I said, it's the DVX'S PICTURE -- IN HD. That's enough in and of itself. But holy cow . . . the rest of it is just . . . wow.

 

[Barry_Green]

The JVC HD200 (coming soon) and the Sony FX1 are both on my radar.

FX1 may be discontinued; there's no firm answer on that, some say it already is.

The Canon at 8 grand is looking good too (I can buy this and the deck)

There is no deck that works with the Canon's 24F and 30F modes.

Another thing from what I understand the 1080p on the Panasonic seems to be uprezing

Not so. Both the 1080 and the 720 are derived from the same 1920x1080 scan off the CCDs. 1080 retains more resolution than 720 does when recorded.

And everyone seems to say Canon's image is the best.

Uh, no. Not by a country mile. We do usually agree that it is capable of making a somewhat sharper image, but "better"? To each his own, but look at the clips yourself; ask HVXGuy who's running a stock footage company and getting submissions from all the camera formats, a lot of us prefer the look of the footage coming from the HVX over any of the competition.

Of course, ask in another forum and they'll say the opposite. :thumbsup:

 

[Cynic821]

Ahh. Mods that agree A far cry from my normal hangout on the gamefaq's message boards when im at the office. LOL

off to shoot some timelapse with the HVX. Too bad i dont have an FX1 though, because its variable frame rates r00L!

 

[Nathyn]

FX1 may be discontinued; there's no firm answer on that, some say it already is.

Which means a replacement is on the way and/or the old FX1 will drop in price. A wish for 24p that works and Sony 1080i. If it happens, for the right price, I'm buying (and I despise Sony).

There is no deck that works with the Canon's 24F and 30F modes.

Yes sadly. But there is Citidisk.

Not so. Both the 1080 and the 720 are derived from the same 1920x1080 scan off the CCDs. 1080 retains more resolution than 720 does when recorded.

I was simply going by reviews. I saw one in DV magazine which mentioned it seemed like the image was being field doubled. I could've read wrong but my main complaint is still P2 not the image or lack thereof. I know Panasonic makes solid product overall and can personally attest to this.

Uh, no. Not by a country mile. We do usually agree that it is capable of making a somewhat sharper image, but "better"? To each his own, but look at the clips yourself; ask HVXGuy who's running a stock footage company and getting submissions from all the camera formats, a lot of us prefer the look of the footage coming from the HVX over any of the competition.

You mean HVX guy really likes the HVX? You jest. For me a "sharper image" is a better image. Once I see the Canon I can judge better but all the reviews I've read say the Canon is the one to watch. I'd buy a wide angle adapter and some kind of top set monitor for the Canon and call it a day.

Of course, ask in another forum and they'll say the opposite. :thumbsup:

I'm sure they will. Honestly I've never seen the HVX picture but I will assume it looks like the DVX in HD. Problem is as much as I love that image I like the image of the XL, as well as Sony's 60i image and after seeing the JVC in action, minus the SSE issue I'm not even worried about the images it can produce. If SSE comes up again I can be stirred back to the Canon or even the HVX. I still plan to get a Sony at some point.

But then I started USING the HVX. Oh, my stars and garters, I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone who's interested in having the best tool for narrative film would even consider another camera.

Actually I've seen the filmout of the HD100 and honestly as much as I love the DVX100 the image is comprable and some say better. Nothing makes the HVX the "best" tool besides your opinion. Frankly the HD100 does 24p, has interchangeable lens and the HDV info takes up less space. The way I see it, the HD100 + MacBook + Citidisk (and or Firestore) equals "hot".

I got a way from film because I didn't want it's trappings so I'm not impressed with a video camera that makes me work like film. I want to shoot for 60 minutes on a 60 minute tape and be able to store all my clips on a 300 - 500GB drive with no problems, hence buying the DVX and after looking at my recent DVX footage I'm fine with this way of working.

Once a 32 gig P2 card hits the market then this will become more viable for me. Run and gun shooting is what I do. After looking at the whole set up the best camera for me is really the XL-H1, but I've been spoiled by having a flip out LCD and when I see how small the HD100 actually is and how professional it looks, it seems to be the one for me. I don't really need variable frame rates (slow and fast mo in FCP have never let me down).

And considering the $ 5,495.00 for the HD110u I have to admit I'm hard pressed to find something better that fits my needs. Again I want to hear what the SSE reports are like with this camera (I still don't believe this problem can't be fixed as much as JVC was unwilling to fix it probably because of cost) and if there are none then I'll probably buy one until I need "true HD" but until then I'm fine with HDV.

Granted I can easily believe that out of the box the HVX is hot based on working knowledge of the DVX but you have to buy a P2 card, a P2 store or a laptop and unload the clips and all that and I'm really not interested. The next best thing is an HVX and Firestore but I don't like not having a tape back up from my electronic capturing.

I love the freedom of DV and HDV offers that same freedom and higher quality to match. Slap it on an HD-DVD and no one's the wiser. All they know is that they're looking at quality footage.

-Nate

 

[Cynic821]

"I love the freedom of DV and HDV offers that same freedom and higher quality to match. Slap it on an HD-DVD and no one's the wiser. All they know is that they're looking at quality footage."

Just outta context or in context, that doesnt sound to well when it comes to being an honest creator of content. Lying to customers is not OK in my book, ever. And though its not lying, saying that they are not the "wiser" sure sounds like it.

 

[dregenthal]

I think we should start a new section numbering and cataloging all the excuses and reasons people have for not owning this camera . . .

I'm betting half this nonsense comes from people that have never once operated the camera . . . maybe they haven't seen the updated version (you know, the one that's not made out of balsa wood).

cuz, frankly, me thinks a lot of it is just plain horesfeathers.

The only one I'm really waiting for is the guy whos gonna tell us he's DP'n a feature with a Super8 handy-cam, blows the HVX away and he sleeps with it under his pillow.

Really.

 

[smelni]

To get my opinion into the "size" of P2 card issues. This is just silly that people are still bringing this up.

For My feature we shot approx 290 reels at 720 (4 gig card) - we have about 40 hours of footage - its not spray and pray - its very planned out shots that require lots of coverage and takes. 10 minutes to a reel was PLENTY - never an issue. Our footage now sits on a single drive array (with dvd backups archived).

Here is the clincher - we NEVER had an issue with a P2 card - ever. Never needed to wait for one on set - never lost footage - never had any issue. And now we are editing on an avid system with no problem. And we only had a part time loader on set - it didnt require a full time position.

So for those still looking for issues with tapeless - try it and see - its a wonderful world when you relax and take a look.

 

[Nathyn]

Just outta context or in context, that doesnt sound to well when it comes to being an honest creator of content. Lying to customers is not OK in my book, ever. And though its not lying, saying that they are not the "wiser" sure sounds like it.

You are kidding right? I don't know anyone who tries to explain to a consumer that they're shooting HDV and not "real HD". Most people consider HDV to be "Real HD". It's us who make those determinations. If I say I'm shooting HD and pull out a Canon H1 are you seriously going to tell me I'm being dishonest? Since when? I love the DVX too and if I had and HVX that would be nice, but come on, just because you have and love the DVX doesn't mean all others are liars because they shoot HDV. That's just silly. HDV is may be low cost consumer HD but it's still HD and now it's being used as a pro format. Spare me the "honesty" spill. No one's being dishonest save you for trying to play the HVX off as if it's the only real choice when even the Sony has proven itself and is being used by a lot of people. I guess it's lying to consumers when you used the HVX and not "true HD" considering DVCPro HD is too a compressed format.

I think we should start a new section numbering and cataloging all the excuses and reasons people have for not owning this camera . . .

Again "your" love of the camera is not reason for me to own it. I have very good reasons for not wanting to purchase the camera and those reasons have a lot to do with infrastucture and the fact that I have access to one. The very fact that this camera exist and the H1, FX1, and HD100 are selling means that this camera doesn't fit everyone's need. I used to feel this way about the DVX100, "everyone should own one, why are other cameras even still being made" but you know what it doesn't fit everyone's needs. You learn that as you grow into doing this kind of work. The XL2 cost more than the DVX100b at the time so why buy a XL2, guess what, a lot of people wanted removeable lens. Go figure.

So for those still looking for issues with tapeless - try it and see - its a wonderful world when you relax and take a look.

Not about looking for issues, it's about comfort and I'm not comfortable with it. I like my footage on tape. Even if I go to "tapeless" aquisition I will still run tape for back up. It just makes sense. And I have heard of people having problems with P2 because it's still a purely digital medium and corruption, ect can occur.

When I shoot, I'm usually the DP and I may have a boom mic guy. There's no lap top on set, nor is there a monitor beside the LCD. We just aren't that big of and operation and if we were we wouldn't even be able to transport it all because we don't have cars. Having to bring a laptop and/or P2 store or whatever is a pain in my a$$ not yours so you guy don't see it as a big deal. I carry the camera, lights, tripod and dolly all on my back and shoulders, do I need the extra weight and size of a laptop or anything else I don't need to carry? No. Plus I have a G4 and would want to do this kind of high powered editing on a G5 or a MacBook which I can't afford neither at the moment.

Again as stated, I don't have a real problem with P2 because I simply wouldn't use it, that's why we have Firestores. But honestly an XL-H1 or HD100 plus a Firestore + tape to me would be gold. I have access to and HVX and I haven't even bothered I simply don't like the work flow nor the space concerns, those are the best "excuses" not to buy this camera when others are available that fit my needs better.

-Nate

 

[ksteiger]

I spent 8 hours in a park in Torrance, Ca. yesterday shooting a "reality" show with the HVX and 2 - 4 gig P2 cards. (Using the Spider Brace) We wanted to interview kids to find out what they thought about life in general. (A man on the street style version of "Kids say the darndest things").
It was serious run and gun style. The "host" would see a kid and start interviewing him immediately, giving me almost NO time to set up a shot.
Not only was all the exposure and focus perfect, or close to it, the P2 cards were only a slight inconvenience. I didn't really trust anyone else to properly offload the card to my g4 powerbook so I would take a 10 minute break every hour or so to do so. No one had any problem with this working situation.
The best part was working with the footage later that night. No capturing!!! (or does that time not count?) And there is nothing quite as gorgeous as the images from this camera under blue skies with that "5 p.m." lighting.
We shot 720 30PN to deliver in standard DV NTSC without letterboxing. We wanted to get away from the stark video look but not go all the way to "film look" (24P). I had to be careful framing, knowing I would lose the sides in standard def. We wanted to be able to have hi-def masters for future proofing, but deliver now in SD.

To all those who complain about the P2 workflow with this little gem. Go and actually use one first. You will be sold. You will feel VERY bleeding edge.

 

[Nathyn]

Not only was all the exposure and focus perfect, or close to it, the P2 cards were only a slight inconvenience. I didn't really trust anyone else to properly offload the card to my g4 powerbook so I would take a 10 minute break every hour or so to do so. No one had any problem with this working situation.

Hey Ksteiger, now you're peeking my interest. I always wondered about how this camera works with a G4. I'm looking a MacBook, maybe even a MacBook Pro HD/HDV editing set up. What's the speed like and how fast is your G4? I'm thinking maybe I should go with a G5 desktop and a G4 laptop. Or maybe keep my G4 desktop for DVD burning and such and use my G5 laptop for editing. But then again the MacBook Pro and the Black Macbook can burn everything. Choices. I could get a MacBook and one of those mice they use for editing then sell my Mac G4. Eventually the goal is to own a G5 laptop and Desktop maybe by next year or so.

What's the battery life like on your PBook when you're editing this way and what is your harddrive sit up? I am looking at laptop editing in the future. I have a G4 dual 1gig Powermac at home but my PowerBook is only a G3 lombard I use for internet and screenwriting. I may buy a Macbook Pro from eBay but I hear they're coming out with new ones that don't run so hot. (I've seen MacBook pros on eBay for about $1,700 or so for a 2gig processor).

I'll see what happens with this film I'm making now. If the money is there I'll get a new setup and base it around the MacBook/Pro and maybe sell my old G4. Also how many people were on this shoot with you? Many times I'm shooting, directing and starring so I'm wearing a lot of hats. If anything I would need two P2 cards if I went this route or to capture direct to disk which I can't really monitor when I'm on camera.

As far as capturing, frankly I like capturing because I like to see the various shots but I know P2 can play back the clips, but I like having all my clips in the bin because sometimes what you thought was a throw away shot turns out to be a life saver.

-Nate