HVX in PAL-Land Advice please

D

daveswan

Well-known member
Ok the situation is that I'm considering buying a serious-enthusiast cam and am thinking HVX 200 or HD 110.

Problem is, AVID still doesn't realise that more than half the world runs on 25/50 fps and doesn't support 720/25p :furious3: so what do you folks do? (I can't afford another NLE, I already use Xpress Pro HD)

My options seem to be
1) Go for the HVX + Firestore and shoot up to 1080i £5600 but loose 720 native and variable frame rates
2) Go for the HD 110 and shoot SD for now £3600
3) Go for a bare HVX, shoot SD and wait for P2 cards to fall in price and for AVID to wake up
4) Hold off for now and await developments.

Any other comments Re: the two cams would be apreciated and I'm not locking out NTSC users, but PAL comments are more relevent to me.

My ideal cam would combine the DVCPRO HD of the HVX with the ergonomics of the HD 110 with the lens elements of the HVX and the manual control of the HD 110

Sorry to ramble a bit but I realy don't know which way to go.
Hoping for help,
Regards,
Dave
 
Hi Dave ! I live in in Pal land too. All I can say is that I bought the HVX and have not regretted it for a minute. Personally I would not base my decision on what editing system you have but on whats the best camera for your present and future needs. Everything else will catch up, last Feb when I bought the HVX there were no alternative to recording HD to disc except using the P2 cards, now you have the cineporter, Firestore, Citidisc (may have some dependability issues) as well as the upcoming DV Rack for direct capturing to a laptop. When it was released I think only Avid, Apple and Canopus supported DVCPRO HD and then not all the frame rates, now you have support from Cineform, Raylight, I think you can also edit in Premier and more NLE's and companies are supporting it every day.
Presently I am waiting on the release of the Cineporter which can record up to 4hours HD on the 160Gb drive, (depending on what format you shoot). In the mean time the HVX is great in that I can still shot SD jobs. I recently frecorded a music concert and simply handed over the SD tapes to the producer at the end of the shoot. When working on personal projects I dont intent to shoot tape again but its a great option until the migration to HD is complete. I'm sorry I cant comment on Avid 720/25p but would reckon it will only be a matter of time before its supported if its not already. For my part I'm using Sony Vegas 6 and have just bought Cineform Connect HD for 160 Euro to convert the MFX files to AVI's , options are appearing all the time, base your decision on your current and future needs !!
Good luck with whatever you decide !
 
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Hey Dave,

Pal land here too, owner of hvx since april too...
Like ray said, you should rather look on your needs for the cam, not the editing, also if i know whicj costs are related to it..!

I am very happy with the decission too, i think that specially dvcpro50 is underrated with the 3:1 compression and the 4:2:2 colour space, which is great.
Maybe this would be a way for you to work with (not sure, but the firestore should do it, also not sure about avid, but should do it too) until the game changes.

I went for p2, but its right that it is ****ing expensive, anyway, if you dont mind thinking about to switch to e new nle: think about the new canopus edius broadcast 4: fully support of pal-settings(frmaerates inclusive!), no file "wrapping",native editing, and you can use it to record directly to your pc(no "pn"-mode i guess).
There will be a free trial of edius 4 pro(with some broadcast elemnts, so it will support the hvx pal settings too) in the next weeks, it works like a licence for 30 days, that could help you a little..and then you can decide what you wanna do..!

good luck
 
Just to support what hvx_germanboy said - I'm more than happy with my HVX200E. I've just upgraded my NLE system to EDIUS Broadcast V4 and the 50Hz (PAL) HVX is now fully supported (unlike FCP and AVID).
But keep in mind - this is a DVX/HVX forum and people are somewhat biased.
 
Well now!
Thanks to all for your quick replies. I hadn't heard of the cineporter untill now, looks to be the way to go, when it becomes available here. I may well go for the HVX if funds allow, and think about accesories later, good SD is just as importent to me as good HD, so I could sticK to recording DV untill I can afford either a cineporter or firestore, or untill 128 gGP2.
I will be away from internet for a while so my posts will be erratic, please don't be offended if I don't reply quickly.
And yes I have allowed for the understanderble bias in the forum, I was leaning towards the HVX myself. but, in your considered opinion, and after real use, what negative aspects do you find, and what is the roundy-round focus ring realy like to use? compared to a real manual ring that is.
Regards to all
Dave
 
Hi dave ! Just to let you know there is a Cineporter group buy currently on offer to all DVX user site members. Its limited to the first 100 members and offers a 10% discount on the 160GB and 320GB units which retail at 2199 and 3499 U.S. Dollars. Check out the Cineporter thread in the Hardware section. If you act quickly you can still make the list (this is not an advert for cineporter by the way) but if your not on the list you may be waiting quiet some time before you see one here in Pal land.
 
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RayFrisby said:
Presently I am waiting on the release of the Cineporter which can record up to 4hours HD on the 160Gb drive, (depending on what format you shoot).
Click to expand...

I have heard of some dropout problems with cineporter. Can anyone testify on this?
I read on some posts some people complaining with regards to dropous in SD. Maybe it is just an SD issue. Has anyone experienced this when shooting HD?
Oh, I remember someone also complaining about dropouts when shooting pn.

I would like to hear about this.

I have decided to buy the HVX, but I need to know about the accessories I am going to buy. Maybe I will buy the P2 cards, but if FStore or Cineport works fine, then I guess I will buy one of this devices.

Anyway, I would like to hear from people that bought any of these, and what their suggestions are.
 
Hi araujofh ! Cineporter has not been released yet so unless it is a beta test model I cannot comment . Are you refering to the Firestore 100 which I've read had some innitial problems but which have been rectified with a firmware update. I am not 100% sure of this but I remember reading about this in a thread concerning the Firestore 100.
 
I live also in PAL area and I've been waiting 3 months Apples promised 720/P/PN support to FCP. I just put my one G5 dual mac for sale. If somebody will buy it I'll buy Edius and PC for video editing.
 
RayFrisby said:
Hi araujofh ! Cineporter has not been released yet so unless it is a beta test model I cannot comment . Are you refering to the Firestore 100 which I've read had some innitial problems but which have been rectified with a firmware update. I am not 100% sure of this but I remember reading about this in a thread concerning the Firestore 100.
Click to expand...

Hi Ray,

Yes, I was referring to the Firestore100.

Thanks for correcting that.
 
Anders Holck said:
Johan, you do realise thay you culd be editing 720p25 in FCP today by importing thru the $99 P2 Log, right?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. P2 Log has been a life saver in terms of opening up the functionality of the P2 camera when working with Final Cut Pro.

We are also in PAL Land (Australia) and have been going flat out with the HVX202EN, P2 Log and Final Cut Pro. Its a great combination.

Cheers

Al
 
jjb said:
Just to support what hvx_germanboy said - I'm more than happy with my HVX200E. I've just upgraded my NLE system to EDIUS Broadcast V4 and the 50Hz (PAL) HVX is now fully supported (unlike FCP and AVID).
But keep in mind - this is a DVX/HVX forum and people are somewhat biased.
Click to expand...




BIASED? BIASED you say? NEVERRRRRRR!
 
daveswan said:
Ok the situation is that I'm considering buying a serious-enthusiast cam and am thinking HVX 200 or HD 110.

Problem is, AVID still doesn't realise that more than half the world runs on 25/50 fps and doesn't support 720/25p :furious3: so what do you folks do? (I can't afford another NLE, I already use Xpress Pro HD)

My options seem to be
1) Go for the HVX + Firestore and shoot up to 1080i £5600 but loose 720 native and variable frame rates
2) Go for the HD 110 and shoot SD for now £3600
3) Go for a bare HVX, shoot SD and wait for P2 cards to fall in price and for AVID to wake up
4) Hold off for now and await developments.

Any other comments Re: the two cams would be apreciated and I'm not locking out NTSC users, but PAL comments are more relevent to me.

My ideal cam would combine the DVCPRO HD of the HVX with the ergonomics of the HD 110 with the lens elements of the HVX and the manual control of the HD 110

Sorry to ramble a bit but I realy don't know which way to go.
Hoping for help,
Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...


Dave, I'm a HVX PAL user, and am quite happy with it. HOWEVER, be sure to know that this is (at least till the cineporter comes out) not the best option for Event Coverage, Marriage coverage, live concerts, etc.

The advantages of the HVX vs the competition are: (IMHO, of course :) )

1- DVCPRO HD- Editing is not processor intensitive, so don't need to switch to expensive workstation. 4:2:2 is often underrated. It certainly is important and gives you a difference compared to even a 4:2:0 XDCAM HD.

2- Variable Frame Rates- No post production effect gives you as good a slowmotion as native variable frame rates. Add to that the possibility to view the effect real time while shooting, and this opens up a world of possibilities. Note that you need p2 to use these, but you can downconvert immediately on camera to DV, for SD work.

3- The "Mojo"- This is a matter of personal and subjective taste, but just compare the HVX footage with the competition (don't judge by the on camera LCD!). The footage looks a lot more organic and filmic.

4- Leica Dicomar- A fixed lens on the HVX, but an excelent one, and often underrated, too. The best in the competing price range.

5- P2- P2 can be viewed as a plus, but also as a disadvantage, just because of the current 8gb card limit and tremendously expensive price. As for the good side of it, I'll simply point this example:

I shot an event that was happening in one day, and had 3 hours to edit it in order for it to be presented as the MAIN CATCH of a Press conference and Prize cerimony( absolutely crazy- I never want to do this again.) I recorded the entire event in 2 8gb cards, which gave me about 80 minutes of DV- yes, you can record DV to P2. Immediately after the event finished, I started, at a local Coffee shop, to edit the piece with my trusty Powerbook. Here was where P2 came to play: NO CAPTURE. What this means is that I only had to worry to edit the piece, and not review,log and capture the footage, which would have taken me at least 80 minutes of my time. I did end up importing every single clip I had captured on the camera, due to time constraint ( didn't have time for any logging, and didn't have P2 log or HD log to review the footage). Suffice to say, I finished on time, did a 13 minutes "show" with contestant comments, music, fast editing and even some lettering and effects (The damn thing ended up like an "Amazing Race" look alike!), and everybody was happy. My employers, the contestants, the press ( local tv guy couldn't believe the quality of the DV FOOTAGE shot with the HVX and the way the piece was edited). All genuinely applauded, everybody wanted a copy of the "show", and I survived to tell the tale :) .

So while this was an extreme scenario, I could see this being a real plus for news coverage, for example. And not having to capture is a bliss. I never want to capture again ! :)

Now, for some bad points:

1- Terrible LCD- Unnacurate colors, almost impossible for critical focus, and terrible contrast ratio. Focus assist works, but it just distracts and is practicaly unusable while shooting.

2- No interchangeable lenses. As good as the leica is, in order to do narrative work, specially short movies or features, you need shallow DOF, and the stock lens is not very good at that. 35mm adaptors work, specially the M2, according to fellow users in this board and the fellow cinematographers at the "24" TV series

3- Ugly beast- The camera is just ugly. the DVX100b gained weight, and is a bit sick, loosing a bit of its black "coolness" and goten a bit blue...

4- No assuring archiving solution- Hard drives? Unreliable. Iomega Rev? Bad track record for Iomega, and relatively low capacity (expensive, too). DLT? Expensive. The Best solution? DVCPROHD Tape. Cost for DVCPRO HD recorder? 25 000 USD.

In conclusion, Dave, while I do love my HVX, and am very happy with the results for both narrative and non narrative work, I would suggest you to wait for the imminent release, this October, of the new JVC HD250 which also records 60/50P. This should be the main contender of the HVX. Try both out, and use the one you feel best with. Don't forget to see if you have the editing front covered. The HDV codec is seriously processor intensitive and, since it is implemented so differently from all manufacturers, requires very specific compatibility parameters.
 
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Hey SPZ,

this was a great review on the hvx..couldnt have done better!
I loved the story with the clip for the press-show!
I can imagine why you dont wanna do it again under such a pressure, imagine there would have been just 1 problem, with the laptop for example, horrible.

Where are you from in Pal-territory?
 
Whew, I realy started something didn't I.

Well regarding editing, I use AVID Xpress pro HD on a dual core laptop and external usb drive, no trouble editing either HDV or transcoded DNxHd 120TR footage from my school's Sony A1E (I'm the Senior Tech cum DP)

Finances lock me in to AXP / PC world, and my laptop has an ExpressCard slot not PC so P2 could be a problem. Sorry to sound -ve, will look for workarounds.

I think the HD 250 may be beyond my finances, but will investigate further. My thoughts are leaning towards a bare HVX, and a Vocus matt-box + filters for £5k, then looking at CinePorter / P2 etc when I can afford them and AVID gets its act together.

I have philosphical doubts about 35mm lens converters, but thats' just me, I don't presume to speak for others.

Many thanks for all the replies, and Regards to All

Dave,
 
RayFrisby said:
Hi Dave ! I live in in Pal land too. All I can say is that I bought the HVX and have not regretted it for a minute.
Click to expand...

Thats just about it for me too!

Indy.....
 
Hello to all ov' you,

I am in PAL land (Paris based).
Edius 4 broadcast.
Using a lightweight laptop (1,5 kg) and redondant (RAID1 - mirrored) small disks.
Soon betatesting DV Rack.

Jenn.
 
Jennyparis said:
Hello to all ov' you,

I am in PAL land (Paris based).
Edius 4 broadcast.
Using a lightweight laptop (1,5 kg) and redondant (RAID1 - mirrored) small disks.
Soon betatesting DV Rack.

Jenn.
Click to expand...

Hi Jenn

Welcome to the forum. Did you already test streaming to your laptop? I've done it with EDIUS Broadcast V4 and everything worked well beside 720p. I'm not sure if this is a SW problem with EDIUS V4 (4.01).
 
Thanks jjb.
Not yet. I use a VAIO Core Duo VAIO 2.16, and I expect my 4 upgrade.
Before investigating SW, check well your system chain. Use a very good shielded Firewire cable, where shielding is maximum, specially on the cam side.
We are geographically close, will PM you when my 4 is ready.

Jenn.
 
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