Questions about the Hero Fest

[Norm Sanders]

Hey John, I wouldn't say I really took it too personally, as my film wasn't singled out as one that sucked, and only afterwards was it included in the "Great" list, which still doesn't really fix what my frustration was. I LOVE people that give good honest feedback, believe me. But to me, it's all about the delivery.

A person will likely be able to help someone that much more by tactfully saying what worked and even more so what DIDN'T work, than just broad based comments about how the film's on par with a 48 hour film festival entry. Simply put, broad based comments piss me off, so if that seems personal then I guess it is. But attrocities that happen in other countries make me angry as well, although I don't take them personally.

My comment back to Spidey was just an attempt for a wake up call at what he said, not so much to fire this thread up. In fact, it was one of the film makers that was originally applauded by him that brought the thread to my attention, otherwise I don't know if I would ever even have noticed.

but I have gave comments to those I've seen. I havent got to all. but i been telling them how it is.

But that's my point, Spidey, is you tell it like it is but are you really helping them? Here's what you posted in our film's thread:

here goes:

under lit with a greyness to it.
OST was over board to where you couldnt hear whats going on.
Noooooo! classic.
I didnt understand whats going on about roaches and stuff I think mostly because of the soundtrack over the voices.
graphics eh.

Generalities. Unless the soundtrack was too loud over EVERYTHING, and the ENTIRE film was underlit, you could be more beneficial by stating some specific scenes that had issues. Going the extra mile (which I try to do when leaving comments for people) is to then give some ideas for how they can improve (i.e. try using bounce cards to fill in where the shadows are, get the mic in closer next time, make this cut sooner at this point, etc.).

Yes, you can help people with telling them what DOESN'T work, but can't you help them even more by also telling them what DOES work (so they'll know to keep that in the next one) and/or what specifically they can do to improve it? Otherwise, more often that not, that type of criticism will simply deflate people, especially the new ones.

yeah but theres too many better luck next time critics and not many harsh one. if you dont prepare for the hard critics then what? you're gonna get eaten up and feel worse than ever. im only trying to make people better film makers.

And honestly, I don't think giving critiques has to be this crusade about helping people to have thicker skin ... they'll get that naturally as they go through life anyway, so why not take the energy and point it in ways to TRULY make them better film makers, by telling them what they can do to improve certain lighting, sound, camera, editing, etc. So they can LEARN from you, not just wonder what they can do to fix what you said stunk.

And lastly, with regards to Kholi, I'm one of the ones that PM'd him. As he's mentioned he was overly harsh in a thread (Briceman, whom he's now friends with), and I simply PM'd him to tell him to tone it down, and if he's going to rip someone a new one to also take the time to say what could have been improved ... which eventually he did. I would never look at Kholi and say he's been "tamed" but simply that he's got some insight into what can help someone vs. just suck the wind out of their sales.

 

[Blaine]

I LOVE people that give good honest feedback, believe me. But to me, it's all about the delivery.

A person will likely be able to help someone that much more by tactfully saying what worked and even more so what DIDN'T work, than just broad based comments about how the film's on par with a 48 hour film festival entry. Simply put, broad based comments piss me off, so if that seems personal then I guess it is. But attrocities that happen in other countries make me angry as well, although I don't take them personally.

My comment back to Spidey was just an attempt for a wake up call...

But that's my point, Spidey, is you tell it like it is but are you really helping them? Here's what you posted in our film's thread:

Generalities... you could be more beneficial by stating some specific scenes that had issues.

Yes, you can help people with telling them what DOESN'T work, but can't you help them even more by also telling them what DOES work (so they'll know to keep that in the next one) and/or what specifically they can do to improve it? Otherwise, more often that not, that type of criticism will simply deflate people, especially the new ones.

And honestly, I don't think giving critiques has to be this crusade about helping people to have thicker skin ... they'll get that naturally as they go through life anyway, so why not take the energy and point it in ways to TRULY make them better film makers, by telling them what they can do to improve certain lighting, sound, camera, editing, etc. So they can LEARN from you, not just wonder what they can do to fix what you said stunk.

Norm, please forgive the extreme editing but I really believe you have the right thing going here. We have gotten to used to the "Simon Cowells" who want to make sure that people are aware of how bad they are but give little or no advice on how to make it better.

"Have you taken film classes?" "Yes" "Then I'd get a lawyer and sue for your money back"

We all get a laugh out of that but not much CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is given. This time around, I've tried very hard to be constructive. Not alway succeeded but I've tried.

It's called bedside manner. You can really get a point across that might help someone become a better filmmaker by being tactful than by being an ass. Sure, you may be doing them a favor by driving them out of the field before they waste a lot of money, but on the other hand, with some well placed suggestions, you might just help create the next Spielberg...who knows, I certainly don't.

 

[Kholi]

And lastly, with regards to Kholi, I'm one of the ones that PM'd him. As he's mentioned he was overly harsh in a thread (Briceman, whom he's now friends with), and I simply PM'd him to tell him to tone it down, and if he's going to rip someone a new one to also take the time to say what could have been improved ... which eventually he did. I would never look at Kholi and say he's been "tamed" but simply that he's got some insight into what can help someone vs. just suck the wind out of their sales.

You're right, no "taming" at all. This and Honda-Tech are the only two forums I ever frequent on the internet, and Honda-Tech is still scarce. That being said, no need to make enemies at all. I'd much rather not critique anyone's work at all, in fear of not being able to tell the truth about it.

Again, though, it's fine to be honest and helpful on the boards... you guys should just be weary that the criticism will be thirty-worse when you go to pitch your product to a paying audience or investors.

A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".

 

[Larry Rutledge]

I'd much rather not critique anyone's work at all, in fear of not being able to tell the truth about it.

I think it is a mistake to not critique for fear of backlash. Speak your mind and speak it truthfully. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, then they don't have to read it. If they comment on it and you feel put upon, fine, ignore it.

Again, though, it's fine to be honest and helpful on the boards... you guys should just be weary that the criticism will be thirty-worse when you go to pitch your product to a paying audience or investors.

I think we all understand that it is harsh and cruel out there...but it's not just the film world that is harsh and cruel. I for one have worked as a professional for 15+ years and have had my share of harsh critics...so I understand. I don't think the purpose of "DVX Fest" is to see just how harsh/cruel we can be. I didn't see the goal of this contest to see just how thick we can make everyone's skin.

Yes, if we make it, we will be harshly criticised....we'll deal with it, or we'll disappear. In the meantime, how about helping people improve the quality of their work so the criticism is few and far between.

A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".

If you really want to know, I have printed out every comment I have received and have read it several times. I want to have in mind the things I need to think about.

In fact, one of the comments I recieved from several had to do with my framing and editing choices...as a result the last two movies I've watched I spent 80% of the time concentrating on their framing and editing choices.

So yes, I am using what people here have said to improve myself. It doesn't mean I have to take everything 100% at face value, but at least I am concentrating on other's framing and editing and seeing how mine does/doesn't measure up.

... Why would I listen to his crap?".

Because the person reviewing is, at that moment, an audience member...and it doesn't matter what Spielberg/Ramis/Rodriguez/etc would do, what matters is what the viewing audience thinks of the project.

 

[Kholi]

I think it is a mistake to not critique for fear of backlash. Speak your mind and speak it truthfully. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, then they don't have to read it. If they comment on it and you feel put upon, fine, ignore it.



I think we all understand that it is harsh and cruel out there...but it's not just the film world that is harsh and cruel. I for one have worked as a professional for 15+ years and have had my share of harsh critics...so I understand. I don't think the purpose of "DVX Fest" is to see just how harsh/cruel we can be. I didn't see the goal of this contest to see just how thick we can make everyone's skin.

Yes, if we make it, we will be harshly criticised....we'll deal with it, or we'll disappear. In the meantime, how about helping people improve the quality of their work so the criticism is few and far between.

Thumbs-up, Larry. I don't think anyone's actually trying to be the biggest asshole critic. I for one will make sure to go in-depth in regards to my why's and why nots.

And glad to know that you take the comments to heart. I've just wondered, time to time, if that's what really goes through people's heads. I for one haven't made a single thing [yet], so I'd wonder why anyone would take my criticism seriously. Guess that's not how it really is.

 

[Blaine]

A question to the people asking for criticism, how to make this or that better... how are you really taking it? Is it really "Okay let me write this down and mull over it so that I can implement it into my next project..."... or is it more like.. "Who the hell does this guy think he is? He's no Spielberg/Rodriguez/Ramis... Why would I listen to his crap?".

Good question, Kholi. I think JimtheJib paid attention to the criticism on his last (SciFest) short. It was pointed out several times about his poor casting. He had kids doing adult (businessmen) parts. This time around he seemed to work within his casting abilities and it showed a marked improvement. You're a writer. It's gotta be hard to listen to criticism so close to the creation of your work. I know when I write something, I need to get away from it for a bit to allow some distance so I can be realistic about it. Usually, I go through stages, just finishing it, I think it's pretty good, then I think it's ****, then okay, then what can I do to make it better... If I stopped at "pretty good" I'd never have anything any good. If I stopped at "it's ****" I'd never do another. It's the distance that's important for objectivity. And that's the problem with these fests, it's like cramming the night before a test, then thinking you've done pretty good only to get your paper back with a "D" or an "F" on it with no explanation. Even with an explanation, we may not yet have the distance we need for objectivity.

But then it's just my

 

[Kholi]

Good question, Kholi. I think JimtheJib paid attention to the criticism on his last (SciFest) short. It was pointed out several times about his poor casting. He had kids doing adult (businessmen) parts. This time around he seemed to work within his casting abilities and it showed a marked improvement. You're a writer. It's gotta be hard to listen to criticism so close to the creation of your work. I know when I write something, I need to get away from it for a bit to allow some distance so I can be realistic about it. Usually, I go through stages, just finishing it, I think it's pretty good, then I think it's shi*, then okay, then what can I do to make it better... If I stopped at "pretty good" I'd never have anything any good. If I stopped at "it's shi*" I'd never do another. It's the distance that's important for objectivity. And that's the problem with these fests, it's like cramming the night before a test, then thinking you've done pretty good only to get your paper back with a "D" or an "F" on it with no explanation. Even with an explanation, we may not yet have the distance we need for objectivity.

But then it's just my

Absolutely. It takes me forever to actually write something, and then it's a multiple of re-writes after I let a few people rip me apart. When I do let those certain people read, I have to prepare myself every time for what they'll say... because there's ALWAYS something wrong, missing, off, or simply stupid... some of those things that I think are just fine.

I see the point in constructive criticism and not destructive. I might not have felt that I was being too destructive, but I'll certainly make sure in the future.

 

[Dahopafilms]

I have to admit, I have a framed quote which sits on my desk beside my monitor.

It's from Richard Walter's book, Screenwriting, but personally I think it applies to all aspects of filmmaking:

"What is important for writers to learn about handling criticism is not merely to be polite even when it is unsolicited, or unsound, or downright stupid, but somehow to remain open to that odd, slim fragment that might prove useful."

Yes, I am a weenie.

But it's a nice quote.

 

[Blaine]

I see the point in constructive criticism and not destructive. I might not have felt that I was being too destructive, but I'll certainly make sure in the future.

Just so we're clear, I wasn't accusing you of being destructive. I was just making a general observation based on some reviews I read...not on yours. The following is an example of what I'd say is more destructive than constructive.

But not a one in my opinion got even close to a 7 for script. I'd give xxxxxxxx a 3 or 4 for script. ... But the script was just cringe-worthy.

To be fair, the review complained about "exposition" but was not particularly specific. It's a broad brush that paints the entire fest without examples of what is bad. It's like a drive by bashing. It's easy to say something is **** but it's much harder to say this is bad and here's why I think it's bad...followed by specific examples.

You've gotta particularly love the guy who comes around with 3 posts, no bonafides and not indication of any expertise on his personal info that comes in, both barrels blazing with nothing to back it up. The guy could be Robert Towne or William Goldman OR he could be a frustrated script reader that can't produce anything himself so he takes it out on others. (THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO REFER TO WILDERWORKS who is a script reader (according to his 'Additional Information'). BUT he has also WRITTEN an interesting story himself.)

 

[MiataFilmSomething]

(2 cents mode ON)

If someone wants to use a film I was involved with to show someone how not to do something, they darn well better send me a copy of the lecture. Telling someone else what's wrong with a film and not telling the people involved (if you have the chance to tell them anyway) to me is cowardice.

I think that anyone who submits a film to anything should know that there is potential that it's going to be put under a microscope. It's an accepted given.
People will either learn to accpet what others say about it or be too scared to get their feelings hurt to submit anything. Remember George McFly in Back to the Future? Wouldn't let anyone read his stuff, too afraid of rejection. It's something we all have to overcome.

But if you see something that could have been improved or want to give some advice, by all means give it. This was our first DVX entry, and more than prizes or bragging rights, we wanted to gather as much feedback as possible. We NEED to know what went wrong so we know what to improve in the future, and we're way too involved in the film to critique our own work. It's too hard to distance yourself from it.

So far I've been called large, big, (aka fat), poor line deliverer, speaker of cliche dialog, and unconvincing. Thank you! Those are the comments we need!

But please be specific. If you think our film sucks and we wasted our time, fine. But tell us why and how to improve it in a next movie.

(2 cents mode off)

 

[Matt Sconce]

Just a thought, a couple thoughts. Out of 25 entries Spidey listed six good entries, I would count between 7-8 really great entries. 30-40 percent of the films in competition were solid really good films. People may think it's terrible, but that's actually a very good figure. Of the seventy odd films in sci-fest, the ratio of good to bad was much much lower.

Secondly, you've gotta take into account that most people making films for fests have other responsibilities besides their film. Sure you might have four months to complete a film, but maybe you work forty hours a week and only have the time after work and on the weekends to get things rolling. Or maye you're busy moving across country. If you're lucky you're you've got overlap between work and your film.

Last, I think it's possible to be honest about what's wrong with a film without tearing people down. I'll critique a film but I won't judge the person. It's easy for people to take things personally when you tell them their film sucks. I don't care if you think a film sucks, but I care if you don't tell a person why their film sucks. There's no room for improvement with one line reviews or giving an A to F review of films.(Remember Coltrain?) I like it when there's honesty about what does and doesn't work. That's the only way to get better. But just keep in mind that people have fragile egos. Telling a person their film sucks, and telling them their direction is weak are very different. Basically, be a tactful asshole if you can.

What classifies a good movie? If you watch "Nine to Five Ninja", you will see a corny, tongue in Cheek, campy, silly thing. But it's pacing, editing, lighting, cinematography, score are great. It is supposed to be funny, and was an experiment in movie making (as it was our first try ever). I watched all the Zombiefest movies, and Scifest entries, and I agree that there is a better percentage of entries in herofest that have a semi professional feel to them.

There are surely some amazing movies in this contest, but there are many stand outs. Of course the majority would not be accepted in Cannes or Sundance, but is that the point? (the thing that makes a movie good) I believe we should constantly be striving for perfection of our craft and I believe this site is here to help all of us (from beginner to expert) to reach our goals. I believe a good movie is one that makes people feel something, whether it is hope, laughter, or other emotions. Just because the world is a harsh place does not mean we have to treat people poorly or insult them. In fact, a truly helpful critic, ispires others to be better. he does not break them and say "you suck, be better next time". This lack of tact hurts people, and hurting people does not have to be a part of critique. I have read many comments that have been extremely helpful to becoming better in this craft, and they inspired me to strive for better.

Saying someone did not put their all into a project is an arrogant assumption, as the critic has no idea of the context. Perhaps, it was the best they could do. A helpful critic will applaud them on their effort and then point them in the ways to become better. When I see someone tearing people down, I see an immature individual, who has not yet learned what it means to help someone.

Honesty is paramount but tact is the key. Behind each film is a person, desperately wanting to become better and hoping someone will like their effort and point them in a direction that helps them grow. I hope this site stays this way.

 

[Kholi]

Have to ask another question... it's for everyone--

Do you take these same things in consideration when you rip Hollywood movies a new one? It's all in the film discussion forums... people literally destroying directors, writers, movies in general.... there's no tact there.

So... how does that translate to judging DVXfest entries?

All I have to say is Uwe Boll... but he's still a person, isn't he?

 

[Larry Rutledge]

I hate to keep jumping in this thread, but for some reason it has really struck a nerve with me. There are two sentiments expressed in this thread that are just bugging me...one being that the projects entered are not worthy to be watched because the people watching are "professionals" and the projects are not "Cannes"-worthy; and, the other being that blanket criticisms are all that is necessary because "it is a hard world out there and you have to be ready".

Most of my reponses to these thoughts I've already expressed in the previous posts here....but to add to it, I think of this place as an online university. Most of what I know I have learned here from outstanding people, some of who entered this fest, most of whom didn't (and NO, I don't view entering the fest as a pre-requisite to critique the projects entered).

Reading through this thread I almost feel bad for entering...if it was so offensive to some that I enter something that "wasn't up to their level" and is so terrible to endure. It seems like sentiments like that would cause the fest to be less interesting to people, not draw more "professionals".

Sure I would LOVE to see top-quality film, and I would LOVE even more to create something worthy of winning...but how will I get there if no one gives me a chance to show what I know how to do now?



Ok, off my soapbox....I'll try not to get back on

 

[Blaine]

Have to ask another question... it's for everyone--

Do you take these same things in consideration when you rip Hollywood movies a new one? It's all in the film discussion forums... people literally destroying directors, writers, movies in general.... there's no tact there.

So... how does that translate to judging DVXfest entries?

All I have to say is Uwe Boll... but he's still a person, isn't he?

If I thought they were hanging around the boards, looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, sure, I'd share some of the nuggets I've garnered throughout my years of success...:grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[Kholi]

If I thought they were hanging around the boards, looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, sure, I'd share some of the nuggets I've garnered throughout my years of success...:grin: :grin: :grin:

LoL.

Nah, I was more wondering why people get to rip hollywood over and over, but get to defend themselves and their creation. That's not fair.

Regardless.


And Larry --

Forums are for discussion... you're free to constantly comment on anything you see fit. If something's totally got you bummed, then speak about it.

Sorry that you're not feeling good about entering your piece. You should feel great, because it's hard to put these things together. Even harder when you're dead serious about it. I had a great time in pre-production, and though I never made it to actual production, I am proud of myself for getting so far.

 

[Blaine]

Reading through this thread I almost feel bad for entering...if it was so offensive to some that I enter something that "wasn't up to their level" and is so terrible to endure. It seems like sentiments like that would cause the fest to be less interesting to people, not draw more "professionals".

You have absolutely no reason to feel that way. At least you had an entry, which is a lot more that can be said of the rest of us...:thumbsup:

 

[Anthem78]

I agree with this thread. The criticism we receive on this site is needed and should be welcomed. I don't want anyone to be afraid to tell me the truth about my film because I don't want to be afraid to say it about theirs.

If you give criticism and back it up with reasons or suggestions (as Isaac and others have done on my film's thread), great. My goal isn't to just make a herofest film and forget it. If the criticism I recieve helps me to make a better film, I welcome it and I'll use it.

 

[Norm Sanders]

I been dissappointed with the overall in the fest. less people and stories that either colide with simularities or poorly executed. there is one movie I really enjoyed because it dark theme but it's character development, camera movement, well designed lighting and lack of words summed up everything. I speak of Cache. A good film quiet and powerful. TGTN by conrad is weird but it did what it was suppose to do and I liked that film as well. and bone hand is shot very well.

BUT everything else is like bad 48 hour film projects. and the thing is people have monthes to make these movies and to be on par with movies that are made in 48 hours is kinda sad or rediculous.

I dunno I know their are learniers here but I want more.

come on, people step it up.

At least on the next one. I know I'm in.

(yes, I added the bold underlining & large font to high light what I'm referrring to below)

Well I can understand why Larry could feel bad, not that he should. But when you've got a respected member who WON the last festival, do a broad stroke with the brush & say EVERY film (other than the 3 he gave his blessing to) is not only bad, but a "bad 48 hour film project" ... it can ruffle some feathers & suck the wind out of people's sails.

So I guess my biggest point is to tell people to THINK before they type, or at the VERY least re-read what they typed & possibly make edits before they hit the submit button, as apparently Spidey didn't really think about what he was saying .... reason being is that when he came back to the thread, he then added 3 more films to the list of films he thought were "great", but which had just previously been massed into the "bad 48 hour film project" category.

Lastly, he had to pull out (even after investing $1,200+ of his own money) of the festival because of circumstances that arose ... but what if he had plowed through & entered anyway? Would the film have been the best it could have been?

I'd wager to say not, which is why he made the personal decision to stay out of this one. Kudos to him, and that's neither a good or bad choice, but his & his alone to make, which I respect.

However, for a lot of people that DID enter this festival, they also had odds up against them, or things fall apart in the last minute, or weren't able to finally get it all together until 10 days before the deadline (or sooner) to even get STARTED ... yet they chose to see what they could do in the amount of time given, or no matter what the obstacle, and they entered anyway.

So, yeah, I can see why people may get a little offended by someone who dropped out of the festival because they couldn't make the perfect film, yet mercilessly bashes nearly everyone else with a broad comment about how bad their film is, and that he "wants more".

Tact, folks, tact. Which requires some thought before hand, in most cases.

 

[Larry Rutledge]

I think what really got me "bothered" was after those broad statements about "all the other films", then he mentioned he hadn't even watched mine.

So how many did he watch? And how many really were bad after all? Maybe he only watched 5 films, 3 of which were the ones he liked and the other 2 were the "all the other films".

That is what bugged me so much.

Sorry got back on the soapbox, but felt it was necessary.

 

[D_and_G]

I certainly don't think ANY of these films are beneath "professionals". Hopefully, one day when I can comfortably call me'self that, I'll still respect and treat with fellowship ANY artist who is passionate about what they do and their craft, regardless of the result.

I've sat in script meetings and had the most ludicrous suggestions and notes by wankers. I expect that kind of bolloxing by pros. When I was in school there was a different criteria. Mostly, it was the achievement of the vision and less on the comparison to Nicholl winning scripts. IMHO, that's a subtle line that shifts when you enter the marketplace.

I agree about tact and providing concrete examples and advice. Mayhap, I should try and do more of that. But I don't think I'm accomplished enough to give that kind of advice. Who knows? I could feel that way for awhile.

I appreciate everyone who got off their butts and made a film. Art is about doing. These fests are an example of that.

Some people want to hold these films to a higher criteria. I appreciate that, but I also want to give artists here a chance at realizing their vision. Professionals or not. I don't know if its possible to achieve those two things without discouraging young filmmakers. It's an interesting balancing act anyway.

And Kholi - no I don't judge these films with the same standards as Hollywood ones. For the most part, those guys have no excuses for turning out the shyte they do. Certainly, when Uwe Boll rolls by in his Porsche, I won't shed a tear if I flip him the bird. :violin:I also wouldn't hesitate to send a Guinness to Colin Farrell's table for "Phonebooth"('cause I dug it)... That's what they get the benjamins for. :beer:








Cheers.