Impact of RED on the competition

Denis Haineault

Denis Haineault

Well-known member
Now that RED has announced what the price will be, I'm really curious to know what could be expected from the competition in terms of price adjustments on their products.

Will they just wait and see until the first RED ships to act? Will they make a preemptive strike and lower their prices? Surely they will be watching closely, and I would think (this is just a guess) that in the end, we will all benefit from this.

thoughts?
 
No equipment maker is going to act based on what has been shown to date. There are more questions than answers about ultimate performance, recording systems, lenses, full system price, etc. This is not yet a competitive product, it's still an unproven concept. That anyone thinks of it differently is completely baffling to me.
 
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I would imagine they are talking about what the may do, but my guess is that for now they'll do nothing (I've been told by someone at Arri that they're "not worried"). If and when this camera starts to get a foothold, they may be forced to react but (as I've speculated elsewhere) it's likely to be a PR job rather than a shift in their prices.

Here's a thought for you - when available I can get a RED ONE for LESS than a DSR450 (OK, so I need a lense and recorder, but you get the idea). With this in mind, how can Sony respond? They can hardly bring the cost of a CineAlta down to within competitive range of RED without seriously undermining their existing product line (all those DVCAM, XDCAM, DigiBeta cameras etc.)

That's why they call it a revolution :)
 
I'm in a digital media program at UCSD and I was raving about this camera to my instructor...and his response to me was.. would you trust this camera in the field? Do you think the industry will embrace this newbie camera?

I just told him that I will make my decisions based on upcoming footage and camera reviews... and in regards to the industry acceptance.. I think it will have a profound effect on the 25,000+ range if RED truly delivers. If the footage looks better, works well in low light, and offers so many recording options (redflash-reddrive-redraid-sata), who the heck would throw down over 100,000 for the ARRI or Cinealta (or for the super expensive VIper)?
 
tonacidigital said:
I'm in a digital media program at UCSD and I was raving about this camera to my instructor...and his response to me was.. would you trust this camera in the field? Do you think the industry will embrace this newbie camera?
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It seems people in the establishment have dream impairment issues...not sure whats ups.

Change can be hard for some people...but I catch the spirit of what Jims up to and know it wont be hard to pull off...he has the cash. (he said he is making it for himself even if no one else were to buy one...thats about like me, but I havent had the cash flow to do what he is doing.)

this is actually funny...who cares what the industry wants...make (change) the industry...after all when something is superior who will want the old. (But from some of the responces its obvious why things havent progressed further...people appear to be slow)

peace

dalen
 
Hello People..1st post on these boards.

Am I missing something. This thing is a concept. Sure we all would like 'a dream camera' but you can't make anything with a sketch, a model and paper specs. Where are the tests?

Having worked in design engineering I would be very suprised if that thing is ready to be bought by any consumer within 18 months and that is just the body, who knows about the guts.

I do find the way this is being sold as a little ungenuine. Rather than being let in to the design process arn't we just being asked to not go ahead and buy something else.

Where are the tests????
 
What's with all the uber-suspicious types?

This isn't a company started by Joey Joe Joe (who has a shaky rep at best). Red was founded by a man named Jim Jannard, who has earned a reputation and a lot of respect from his work at Oakley. That alone should earn him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, it will remain to be seen how the camera turns out exactly, but the start is nothing short of remarkable. Just because you haven't seen footage, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Remember how long it took to see footage from the HVX? F-o-r-e-v-e-r.

It's not like you're going to wake up one day, and Jim's going to say, "Hey, you know what? I changed my mind. There won't be a camera."

There is nothing that Jim has done since the inception of this project that should raise suspicion -- unless you count ambition. Try to keep an open mind. It's really not that painful.
 
I'm asking...where are the buttons? where is the LCD? what is the colour going to be...questions like that. These things need alot of R&D time before they are shop ready. Those prototypes are not even working models.
Yes, this is a great project, but I'm just asking for a little perspective here.

The guy is a business man.

What in the world is 'remarkable' about a model in a glass box.

I'm sure it will work out well and no doubt there will be a RED camera available but I wonder wether it will be 'soon' and wether by that time one of the big boys does not pull the rug from under it.
 
A good dose of speculation is good, but some of you seem to be ignoring that Jim Jannard (and people like Stuart English) are behind the project. Some of you are ignoring that the project has been underway and well-funded since 1999. Some of you also seem to doubt that people like Jim Jannard (and Stuart English) are smart enough to know when they've tackled enough hurdles to announce a release within the year. Keep speculating all you want, but at least keep your speculation a little more realistic.
 
jaques said:
I'm asking...where are the buttons? where is the LCD? what is the colour going to be...questions like that. These things need alot of R&D time before they are shop ready. Those prototypes are not even working models.
Yes, this is a great project, but I'm just asking for a little perspective here.

The guy is a business man.

What in the world is 'remarkable' about a model in a glass box.

I'm sure it will work out well and no doubt there will be a RED camera available but I wonder wether it will be 'soon' and wether by that time one of the big boys does not pull the rug from under it.
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The "start" is the specs. Those are remarkable. They can change, but even if they changed a LOT (say they lost 4K for example, which, at this point, would be shocking), it would still be an incredible camera at the price.

I think you overestimate the ability and willingness of Sony, JVC etc etc to respond to this camera. They have existing product lines that they cannot afford to gut, unless they have their backs firmly against the wall. Even in such an event, corporations are slow to change, sometimes even when they have to.

Buttons & LCD... if the model doesn't do it for you, just... wait...
 
jaques said:
I'm sure it will work out well and no doubt there will be a RED camera available but I wonder wether it will be 'soon' and wether by that time one of the big boys does not pull the rug from under it.
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That doesn't make sense. If you believe RED won't have this camera ready in time why would you think one of the big boys would? It's not like they have a lack of money, vision or resources that the big boys do have. They have everything the big boys have. Jim is rich and has Oakley resources and marketing behind him if he wants. Plus they have at least 6 months on everyone else with just design and concept.
 
tonacidigital said:
his response to me was.. would you trust this camera in the field? Do you think the industry will embrace this newbie camera?
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Actually it's a fair point. People in the industry want to know that the kit they've got is reliable and is going to perform how they expect. It's one of the things that makes people reluctant to switch from film (but not the only one).

In regards to RED, these things will come with time and word-of-mouth. The industry may not "embrace" it, but if it delivers then it will work its way into the industry until it becomes standard kit. For it to be a major success, it needs to get a reputation as a "reliable workhorse" - not something it can do at present.

I'd not be surprised if we see some high-profile films using the RED ONE quite quickly though, especially stuff by the likes of Rodriguez.
 
they probably had it developed when they started in 1999, but waited for the market to catch up. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

peace

dalen

- think about this, they have minority report type computer that is in development at some university I believe...the demo was cool...revolutionary as to how a graphic designer would manipulate photos, etc., then I look at my modern mac and it pales in comparison to this.

all about planned obsolescence...you cant release products to the general public at random or buisness models crumble, for a "revolution" to happen, a lot of steps have to take place first...and part of it is how we look at things.

anyway...cool camera!

peace

dalen
 
I think you overestimate the ability and willingness of Sony, JVC etc etc to respond to this camera. They have existing product lines that they cannot afford to gut
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Hmmm. Well, do not underestimate the likes of Sony. I'm hearing rumours, that if true, will turn peoples perceptions of this company on their heads. Of course it is nothing but rumour, and could be stabbing in the dark. But hey, lets just wait and see.

However I really like the idea of RED. If the specs are borne out in a full production model, and if they sort out things like viewfinders (please don't tell me the LCD is the main viewing device), looks, and importantly balance for handholding or shoulder mounting, then it will definitely be a force to be reckoned with.

What I don't want to see is a camera with amazing specifications lose out due to ergnomics. With the size of that body any shoulder mount may have to be partially attached to the lens rails! And before someone tells me that they can handhold their HVX quite nicely thanks, I should point out that RED will often have whopping great huge 35mm film style lenses attached to it. So the front heaviness of the camera is a real issue.

Although they seem to have been consulting camera operators, so I am sure they will have some sort of solution lined up.
 
Simon, as usual is right on. I'm more concerned about ergonomics then the team's ability to make the camera happen. Please remember, there are plenty of ENG shooters out there who would love to have this camera.
 
jaques said:
Those prototypes are not even working models.
Yes, this is a great project, but I'm just asking for a little perspective here.

What in the world is 'remarkable' about a model in a glass box.
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The HVX was nothing more than a non-working prototype under a glass box at last year's NAB - nothing different there. Jim has made it plain-as-day clear that they're nowhere near the end stages of the camera yet and it will probably be fall before we get any footage. If that means you'd rather not even hear about Red until that time rolls around, then I guess just don't log on to the internet for 6 months. But he's getting the word out, letting people know what he's up to, and sharing that development process with us.

I for one believe that if he says they're going to ship in December (which he hasn't), then it's going to mean more than 4 units being sent to a corner store in Japan on the 30th. How's that for perspective?
 
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I think the biggest impact may be on how the other companies manufacture their cameras. Red is upgradeable. Lemme repeat that, Red is UPGRADEABLE. Swap in, swap out, remove older technology, I think that's amazing. Usually you buy a camera and use it, it depreciates, and you sell it in a few years. This is the first camera that grows depending on your needs and budget. It's like the leatherman of cameras whereas with Sony, Panasonic, and JVC, you've got a screwdriver here, a hammer there, and sometimes you force a tool to work in a way it wasn't meant to be. Seven months till we see just how big of an impact this will have. :)
 
Simon Wyndham said:
Hmmm. Well, do not underestimate the likes of Sony. I'm hearing rumours, that if true, will turn peoples perceptions of this company on their heads. Of course it is nothing but rumour, and could be stabbing in the dark. But hey, lets just wait and see.
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I'd really be happy to see Sony come up with something, but as it stands, their latest product is a 1/2" 1080 XDCAM that costs the same as RED. There's literally no comparison. They would have to completely restructure their entire product line (including items that are just a couple of months old) to be competitive. Of course, they have a HUGE installed user base and it's not like Sony is going to dissapear anytime soon. But I do think that a good chunk of their video acquisition department is going to take a hit in the next few years if they don't respond with something priced even remotely competitive to RED. (That goes for Panasonic as well).

Simon Wyndham said:
Please don't tell me the LCD is the main viewing device
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This has already commented on this several times as well;

From Studio Daily (http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6388.html)

Studio Daily: Are we talking an optical and an electronic viewfinder option?

Jannard: For size and other reasons we decided to delete the optical viewfinder from our first camera. We recognize that there are people out there who want an optical viewfinder, but it will not make our first model. There are a couple of reasons that an optical finder is an advantage.
One we heard about often is the ability to see outside of the recorded frame. The good news is the way we use our sensor, we can now offer that same capability. There are some other features that people like in optical viewfinder, but they’ll just have to wait for those in another camera body.

And from DV.com (http://www.dv.com/print_me.jhtml?articleId=186500760)

DV: What about the viewfinder? Electronic or optical?

Schilowitz: At this point in time, it's an electronic viewfinder. But very next generation, high resolution technology.

DV: An HD reference monitor....

Schilowitz: Right. Super high res to complement the super high res sensor.

An optical viewfinder is of high interest to us, or at least to one part of the user base. So that may change and evolve, too. That's part of that development process I keep referring to. There are some unique technologies that we are looking at that may bring the benefits of an optical viewfinder into the high res electronic world… we’ll see. Not trying to lead anyone down a path here, just being candid about the fact that we really understand what cinematographers want in an optical viewfinder and will keep looking at how to best deliver to their needs.

There are a lot of additional complexities and engineering difficulties in doing an optical viewfinder. It's a sort of pick your poison kind of world. If you want this, what are you willing to give up to get it? And there are complexities you have to add to push an electronic product into something more mechanical. So we're wrestling with that. We hope to have the best answer for all these issues, but you can't make everyone happy, so you just do your best.
 
What's so remarkable?

What's so remarkable?

masada1903 said:
What's with all the uber-suspicious types? (snip) Yes, it will remain to be seen how the camera turns out exactly, but the start is nothing short of remarkable.
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What specificially is so remarkable about what has been unveiled at NAB? A camera body concept design sans electronics? Among many other things, I'm baffled by where they intend to put the signal processing electronics for a 4K sensor. If they cram them into that little camera body you'll be able to fry bacon on it. Perhaps the cage is to prevent camera operator burns.
 
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Wow...what did I say?
If you think that the Red camera is a renegade and a big gamble..OK
If you think the 'big boys' are way behind in technology...OK
If you think the big boys would gamble and release an untested 'dream' camera...OK
If you think if Red is never released and you won't mind because..hey..it was just a dream and we must dream...OK
If you will hang your dreams on a product which has not shown you anything apart from names and models...OK

This thing has lots of parts missing and thats just on the surface. Come on do you think this outfit can bring this product to the table in the timeframe they have set out. It takes alot of engineers and designers to bring a product as sophisticated as this to the consumer, not just big heads of department. Quality control, manufacturing, tooling. This ain't sunglasses. I hope they do bring it off. But if this display is as far as they have got...then they are not going to do it...period...if they are holding back and showing us old stuff to pull our strings and create more hype..sure I understand. But you will give him slack because it's the companies first try and the guy is a 'rebel'.
Why has this message board gone RED crazy and side lined the other makers (apart from Panasonic)..marketing and money.

I stand by the fact that I think the corporations are way further ahead in the lab than they show in the market place. They didn't get big for nothing. But hey, Red is the American dream isn't it?
 
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