I think I get The Goal of Red

[roxics]

Can you get a 1080p 60 frame camera with 35mm DOF that doesn't up-rez for under $10K?

Jim

No. And that's ok. There are different markets. None of us know what market RED is aimed at though? On one hand you're talking high end specs like you plan to take on Arri and Dalsa in a fist fight and on the other you're posting about it on a DVX messageboard ($3500 cameras). So we don't know what to expect as far as price or scalability.

Here's to hoping the RED will have a cheaper HDV cousin or capability for well under $10,000

 

[Zig_Zigman]

I believe Mr. Jannard just stated that a Red variant will be available for under 10k with 1080p native at 60 frames a second. How will the data be captured?

Is this with or without lens, Mr. J?

I'll be at NAB and I can't wait.

 

[Gordon JL]

Native 1080p, variable frame rates, with 35mm DOF? Sounds sort of like an HVX with the Andromeda and a DOF Adapter add-on; except all for under 10k... But is that WITH lens?

Now, if there could be an even more stripped down variant; like an HVX (but with 35mm DOF of course) but without the Andromeda-like capabilties... Maybe under 6k; I'd buy that.

 

[mmm]

Native 1080p, variable frame rates, with 35mm DOF? Sounds sort of like an HVX with the Andromeda and a DOF Adapter add-on; except all for under 10k... But is that WITH lens?

Now, if there could be an even more stripped down variant; like an HVX (but with 35mm DOF of course) but without the Andromeda-like capabilties... Maybe under 6k; I'd buy that.

I think RED will resolve far more resolution than the HVX. It should also have a number of other benefits that come from a larger chip. I'm guessing compromises will have to be made somewhere though.

 

[MarcusX]

Just because of the MUCH larger sensor you should get a much better contrast range and sensitivity. 1/3" is tiny compared to 35mm. It should outperform any Cinealta or Varicam easily when it comes to picture quality.

Try to get your hands on a Canon 5D DSLR and make some pictures, it's sensor has nearly the same resolution and size as the Red. Then you get an idea what the Red is capable of, theoreticaly.

 

[Ranger]

With the Red’s image sensor of 4520 x 2540 versus HVX’s 950 x 540 I think it is obvious there is no comparison on image resolution, but let’s be honest, if the Red achieves it stated goals then it will virtually obliterate all but the highest tiered cameras.

But resolution becomes moot if the glass in front of the sensor is not up to the task. This, in my opinion, is where most of ones money will be invested (and potential Achilles Heel to many low budget indies). I can realistically see the Red camera body street for about $10k. Lenses are a different matter. However, a body at that price would be a steal. Overnight, Red would redefine the video market, not only for indies, but professionals also.

Good luck Red.

 

[taubkin]

What do you mean with up-rez? Pixelshift??

Forget about that! What do you mean with "under 10K" !!!! rogar-Evil(DBG):

 

[myfriendimage]

Built in DOF adapter on a non proffesional camera narrows the feild to much, it wouldnt apeal to broadcasters wanting to shoot 60p.

 

[Jannard]

Zig... that is not what I said.

I believe Mr. Jannard just stated that a Red variant will be available for under 10k with 1080p native at 60 frames a second. How will the data be captured?

Is this with or without lens, Mr. J?

I'll be at NAB and I can't wait.

 

[AshG]

I dont understand the obsession on low price. Lets pretend the camera is only $1 and meets all the specs that have been hinted. Great... now you need $60K+ in post gear to actually begin to edit anything. This camera will be revolutionary even if it is $50K which would bring the rental down to something very approachable to almost everyone.

If you look at Jim and his history, he has been associated for high quality forward thinking products... not the price leader but the style leader. I expect the same from RED.



ash =o)

 

[Zig_Zigman]

There is no obsession on low price. Just an obsession on price.

I see Mr J was just referencing a previous post in talking 10k.

Well...there *are* 1080 cams for under 10k. Way under. But not 10k 60p cams.

Anyway, it just shows there are two markets. Those that want a cam they can *own* that will shoot full 1080 24p will an interchangeable lens, and those that want a 4:4:4: Viper competitor they can rent.

 

[Haakon]

Lets pretend the camera is only $1 and meets all the specs that have been hinted. Great... now you need $60K+ in post gear to actually begin to edit anything.

The point of RED is that the system will be modular and give you options. If you don't require (or can't handle) 4:4:4 4K footage from the get go, you don't have to invest in it. And if you work in the 1080 realm you certainly don't need $60K+ worth of gear to edit the footage. Given the fact that the camera is promising 35mm DOF and 60p even for 1080 content, there are plenty of reasons to be interested in the camera even if you aren't interested in the "best specs" that the camera can squeeze out. Jim even made mention on a another thread that there's a possibility that the sensor itself can even be replaced and/or upgraded. That means that even down to the core of the imager, you choose the parts that are applicable (and financially reasonable) for your situation.

I know that for whatever reason you're intent on assuming this camera is going to cost $50K+ (as much as others think it's going to be $10K and others still think it might go as high as $100K or more), but besides the fact that everyones' guesses are complete speculation and aren't really productive in the first place, I think that what the system is going to offer are choices, flexibility, and functionality, and it will cost whatever you can afford to outfit your particular RED system with.

 

[AshG]

I am not intent on anything, I think with all the promised specs it will be $50k or so. Maybe you can purchase a barebones set-up for cheaper but even the tech for modularity isnt cheap. You have to have the bandwidth, connections, etc. etc. all worked out and built into the base unit.

Even after the HUGE price drop, a standard definition sdx900 with a decent lens, viewfinder, etc. is over $20k and that has a smaller 2/3" CCD sensor. I dont expect the base model for RED to be less than arguably the best SD camera around... Even at only 1080p with 60p capability, it is competing with $50K+ cameras... forget the 4K.



ash =o)

 

[majormorgan]

This RED camera really excites me.

I've been following with the DVX for years and then the HVX turns up and throws that all on its head. So I start thinking I'll be investing in a HVX following on from Panasonic's tradition of excellence with cameras.

Except Jim turns up with his camera capable of 1080, 2k and 4k and it may yet be in my price range.

Holy crap. Given where Jim's from and his background this isn't just two guys in a bedroom with no funding thinking amazing 'what ifs.'

Its got the fantastic raw energy and drive [even after all these years eh Jim !] of two guys in a bedroom, but it also has the serious entrepreneurial spirit with clout that it deserves.

What we have here is a camera that aims to overdeliver right now. With most of us just getting our heads around HD, here's a guy trying to put into the hands of an indie filmmaker a tool that will give the film industry a run for their money. And they are scared of HD let alone digital 2 & 4K. Why stop aiming at just HD when we can all aim higher. Who says everyone needs to progress from SD to HD when we can go to from SD to film res?

Here's the dream I see.

I see a camera that can record at the maximum size [4K] and can downsize on the fly out to a smaller file. This means for a feature I could shoot 4k. Down res to 1080 for manageability. Cut my film in 1080 and then if someone wants me to do a blow up, not only do I have a HD version for TV dsitribution, but I could actually say, ok here is the EDL and here is all the footage in their 4k size, lets do a conform up at a post house with that and hey presto its a bigger delivery that will look even better.

I could shoot 4k for effects enabling more options in terms of blowing up cropping, compositing etc. I then output the shots at HD res and cut it into my picture. And I have the effects shots ready to render out to 4k when that film distributer comes-a-knocking.

I could shoot 2k or 4k for video libraries and immediately have more to offer than HDV, DVCPROHD and HD.

And I can take advantage of it now.

I don't have a lot of money and so I have to think for flexibility in all my purchases. They have to last longer than I need them to.

I already want a HVX with a 35mm converter and then to buy some prime Arri or Cooke glass. When that lot could cost me about £6000-£10,000 and take up a lot of infront of the camera's fixed lense I'm ready to talk alternatives. If there aren't any then I'm with the HVX. But There is and it could be RED.

I want a camera that can I can use for the next 10-20 years. One that grows old and battered like the Arri's you see being used over and over again that are 10-30 years old.

I want to develop with this camera, and as I develop, upgrade it over and over again.

I want to be able to use quality glass - prime lenses to maximise what I can achieve. I want the results of film in an instant. I want flexibility like the HVX in terms of workflow.

And what if you could swap out the CCD later [yourself or at a dealership] for an 8K one then OMG this thing wil run forever. This isn't even needed but if you could upgrade within what you have then everyone else is left for dead.

And the rumors and speculation flying around suggest that this is possible with RED. O.M.F.G

I started this entry with the line 'This RED camera really excites me.' What I should have said is 'This whole venture excites and inspires me.'

The dream I see, is me standing behind a camera with a nice piece of glass bolted onto it, a matte box to die for, directing from behind the camera. I've never been able to recognise the camera I see. What if that camera was a RED. More importantly what if that camera was a 15 year old RED that I never part with. Lets see the camera so I can see if that's in my dream.

For now the HVX is on hold.

Thanks,
Richard
[Majormorgan]

 

[oneinfiniteloop]

You have some very good points in your post, and it is very much all of our's dream (or at least mine). Liberation from the "system" that holds us in place would be excellent.

I want a camera that can I can use for the next 10-20 years. One that grows old and battered like the Arri's you see being used over and over again that are 10-30 years old.

This quote interested me, though. Considering film cameras/technology is almost a century old, we have to put this in perspective. These Arri's that are "being used over and over again" took 70 years plus to get there. It was developed over time.

Now, look at digital video in cinema. Yeah, it's gaining more ground, but it has not broken through, per se. High end video technology is only 30 or so years old (not an exact number) so it's still young compared to film techology. Also, there are inherent problems with digital video technology that is has to overcome that film never had to deal with.

But, I stay optimistic, I'm not ciritzing you in any way. Hopefully Jim and the RED stay true to Moore's Law and makes this ideal a reality. We are definately standing at a nexus in technology, and that coupled with some artful storytelling and independent spirit has the potential to change the world.

Andrew

 

[Stephen W]

It's a point that's always interested me 'cause, as majormorgan says, film cameras last (because the technological advances are largely in the film stock so they stay compatible). With the ways electronic technology advances though, I'm not sure a Red camera would still be a viable system in 20 years regardless of how modular it is to start with.

Digital Video in cinema probably won't break through until the Cinemas themselves convert to Digital Projection technology (and there's all sorts of reasons they don't want to). But once that happens, the major market for film stock (distribution) will be gone so Fuji, Kodak et al will stop producing film for us to use, at which point everyone will go digital.

In the meantime, and taking up a point that's been made on several occassions, the quality of the picture matters a helluva lot to me. Essentially what Red does is put the quality of my picture (if shot right) ahead of stuff like Star Wars, making my films a lot more attractive to distributors and not out-of-place in the cinema.

 

[AshG]

The "system" has nothing to do with cameras or resolution. It is politics and marketing. Even if you made an awesome movie, you have to market it. More affordable cameras are but a small piece of the puzzle. That being said, I am looking forward to this camera...


ash =o)

 

[Emanuel]

The point of RED is that the system will be modular and give you options. If you don't require (or can't handle) 4:4:4 4K footage from the get go, you don't have to invest in it. And if you work in the 1080 realm you certainly don't need $60K+ worth of gear to edit the footage. Given the fact that the camera is promising 35mm DOF and 60p even for 1080 content, there are plenty of reasons to be interested in the camera even if you aren't interested in the "best specs" that the camera can squeeze out. Jim even made mention on a another thread that there's a possibility that the sensor itself can even be replaced and/or upgraded. That means that even down to the core of the imager, you choose the parts that are applicable (and financially reasonable) for your situation.

I know that for whatever reason you're intent on assuming this camera is going to cost $50K+ (as much as others think it's going to be $10K and others still think it might go as high as $100K or more), but besides the fact that everyones' guesses are complete speculation and aren't really productive in the first place, I think that what the system is going to offer are choices, flexibility, and functionality, and it will cost whatever you can afford to outfit your particular RED system with.

Well said my friend. And this it already means a revolution!

 

[Emanuel]

Jim is not a common business man. As his contemporary Richard Branson (Virgin) made with the (at least) european air flights (and also with his music label -- so that's the example) and Hughes had already done before with the transatlantic flights to everybody, it came the history's time to James Jannard (or thus let me believe 'til next Monday! -- I'm just kidding 'cause it's enough to follow his profile to see who is himself as entrepreneur).