F5: Zoom Lenses for Sony F5

The youngsters.

It is very interesting this one. I bog myself down with huge Vlocks (so I dont keep stopping for battery changes) A big monitor (so I can focus) and all sorts of other claptrap - cans - lav mics - you name it - yet have been on jobs where 'youngsters' are apparently capable of shooting the same thing with a bare DSLR

But all that claptrap is there for a reason .. to get the client what they need quickly and efficiently

So these guys must be compromising - poor focus, bad sound, whatever, yet the clients don't seems to mind or maybe blame other factors on 'issues' in their results

You are right - cinematic is very cool, but hard to do and still be fast slick and efficient like the Ex3 user - something must give - I suppose it is up to you and your clientelle to decide what it is..

S
 
nsoltz said:
I continue to use my EX-1 for run and gun. The servo zoom makes a big difference as well as even, I hate to say it, auto features when needed. I would not be without it for many applications. I personally wouldn't consider using my F3 (or F5/55 if I owned one) for that kind of shooting. If you feel you need the jump in quality, consider the PMW-200 which will shoot XDCAM 50Mbps 4:2:2. I love my F3 and I am also a big fan of the FS700. But I don't use those tools for run and gun purposes. My DSLR is lower-end interviews. The EX-1 for run and gun and more "video" work and the F3 for higher-end interviews and cinematic.

Ned Soltz
Click to expand...

Also, I use a Samurai recorder and record Pro Res LT (around 80mb/sec). You can noticed the difference and notice better colour with Pro Res 422 10 bit, but it's not significant and does nothing for DOF.
 
morgan_moore said:
The youngsters.

It is very interesting this one. I bog myself down with huge Vlocks (so I dont keep stopping for battery changes) A big monitor (so I can focus) and all sorts of other claptrap - cans - lav mics - you name it - yet have been on jobs where 'youngsters' are apparently capable of shooting the same thing with a bare DSLR

But all that claptrap is there for a reason .. to get the client what they need quickly and efficiently

So these guys must be compromising - poor focus, bad sound, whatever, yet the clients don't seems to mind or maybe blame other factors on 'issues' in their results

You are right - cinematic is very cool, but hard to do and still be fast slick and efficient like the Ex3 user - something must give - I suppose it is up to you and your clientelle to decide what it is..

S
Click to expand...

Yes, the new guys compromise sound, bad focus etc a lot, but some clients don't seem to mind. However, the more experienced "youngster" (contradiction in terms) gets away with "good enough" sound and shoots well enough to get enough clean shots for the edit, and hence these guys charge more.... It's always a difficult one for me, choosing gear. I checked out the PMW-200 and it looks good, but compared with my EX3 with a Samurai it doesn't really beat that apart from on-board recording at 50mb/s and x3 chips. If £20k was no option then I would have an F5 set-up no problem.

What would you get if you had £20k? Given that you already had lights, tripod etc. Just for cam and lenses.
 
Nick Navaro said:
What would you get if you had £20k? Given that you already had lights, tripod etc. Just for cam and lenses.
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Lets be clear Im talking about tools right for me.. the ability to do 'cinematic' corporate/run and gun - not drama or whatever.

I dunno... which might mean now is not the right time to buy a camera - nothing really appeals to me, for example I was all primed to buy a scarlet but just decided the lowlight was not good enough and it was too heavy. I got so frustrated with zooms that I considered an Arri LWZ - but decided it was not long enough

I own the unfashionable FS100 for almost that reason - the depreciation on the camera is capped and Im keeping my real money for a future cam.

Lens wise Im not joking - my nikkors 28-85, 35-70 and 18prime are what I would choose, irrelevant of budget - (apart from the fuiji cabrio) - I own nearly every other option.. canon 24-105, nikkor 17-85, nikkor 17-35.. whatever. All those lenses are total crap because you cant pull focus with them.

(consider that the 28-85 will be virtually prefect with a speedbooster when they become available)

If I was not a nikon head, (used to focussing in that direction) Id also look at contax/zeiss options - an 18mm and a 28-70 for example.

For me £10k+ on a camera Im waiting for the one that will have 3-5 years of life file wise and fit like a glove ergonomically

Im wondering if a smaller format than S35 is the sweet spot, maybe MFT or S16 - big enough to be 'cinematic' used with primes and small enough for a zoom (not that there is one) to be a manageable size and have a better range... maybe the MFT BMC with one of those old eng zoom lenses that have a doubler!

The F5/55 do seem to approach being very good cameras. Used F3s are coming on to my radar as being a good price/quality point. Personally I think the canons are an ergonomic mess (too tall, XLR on the monitor etc) but the C100 offers a good price point, as may a used C300. I just find it hard to think of buying a £10k+ camera when you see the black magic specs, I suppose Id like a black magic whose price was doubled and actually worked was available and had the kinks ironed out.

I suppose, in summary, I believe that camera makers have not really gripped the challenge of making a larger chipped camera that really works.

So, Used F3, C100, or an F5 if you try it for a week and fall in love with it?? I mean you gotta go beyond specs and be thinking - "this is my camera - It makes me walk taller" because for £20k you could be paying down your mortgage, getting a new motor, making an investment that matures when you retire, or something else significant in your broader life.

And try some old manual zoom glass - physically try it - dont believe the fora but try it!

Also keep the EX3

S
 
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What you say makes total sense. I was waiting for the AF-100 2.5 years ago and lost a lot of work "waiting", then when it was released it really wasn't all that good. I ended up buying the EX3 which I should have just done 6 months before and saved a load of hassle.

The problem is, we're perpetually waiting for the "perfect" camera, which is not coming for a while. If the Sony F5 was £5k loads of people would buy it. So apart from the value (and no rocker for zoom, eek) it's a great cam, it's modular, it can upgrade to 4k raw.

Why are there no smaller 2/3" ENG cams? Is it because of the heat they generate and need a bigger chasis?

If the Panasonic AJ-HPX3100 P2HD 100mb/s with it's 2/3" amazing image and awesome zoom, could fit into the size of a Sony F5, that would be the perfect camera for me. Why doesn't that exist?
 
Nick Navaro said:
What you say makes total sense. I was waiting for the AF-100 2.5 years ago and lost a lot of work "waiting", then when it was released it really wasn't all that good. I ended up buying the EX3 which I should have just done 6 months before and saved a load of hassle.

The problem is, we're perpetually waiting for the "perfect" camera, which is not coming for a while. If the Sony F5 was £5k loads of people would buy it. So apart from the value (and no rocker for zoom, eek) it's a great cam, it's modular, it can upgrade to 4k raw.

Why are there no smaller 2/3" ENG cams? Is it because of the heat they generate and need a bigger chasis?

If the Panasonic AJ-HPX3100 P2HD 100mb/s with it's 2/3" amazing image and awesome zoom, could fit into the size of a Sony F5, that would be the perfect camera for me. Why doesn't that exist?
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Well from my experience in the stills world 'the perfect camera' will come, I mean my new nikon D600 is pretty perfect (for stills) for £1600 considering I spend £15k on a digiback 8 years ago with the same resolution and much wonkier firmware.

As for the F5 - I dont think it is 'perfect' or certainly not perfect for 'actuality' because the chip is too big making it too hard to focus and forcing zoom lenses to be too big to carry or have a tiny range.
There are no decent focus aids, and no AF (!) Also the HF jack is an error.


I think its a good cine camera of course

Even the fuiji cabrio needs a focus rocker to be perfect

I happen to think my EX1 is pretty perfect in its class - very well designed only issue is monitoring in the sun.

I think what we want does not exist because the manufactuers dont understand our sector 'artistic actuality' or it is too small to service.

Also the blogeratti dont dwell on the downsides of actually shooting full jobs with 'workaround' cameras - leading to a failure to feedback to those manufacturers.

I guess we both want a cam around S16 to MFT and a good zoom to go with it.

And also solid.. with XLR ND and good service/spares/support/firmware (im scared of Ikonopoop, BMC and the other indy wonk manufacs, even Red really)

I guess we fall between two stools; the DSLR toting indy kids and the formal DP guys in a sector of rented F55s and PL glass

S
 
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sam, does your 28-85 ais lens move back and forth while zooming/focusing or does it keep its size? looks like a nice lens, is it parfocal too?

also, what do you think of the tokina 28-85 f4?
 
" All those lenses are total crap because you cant pull focus with them."
Strong words but I have no idea what you mean.
My 17-35 and 28-70 and 80-200 are reasonably parfocal and have consistent f - stops.
Personally I hate using lenses where the f stop isn't consistent.

These days with speed booster available for the FS100 i think its a very attractive camera ( as well as the FS700 of course).
Full frame DOF, one extra stop of exposure and IS for $600 - WOW what's not to like.
I just wish they would make one for the F3 and I'd switch to Canon lenses in a heartbeat. The IS is what's missing from my F3.

 
Lenilenapi said:
" All those lenses are total crap because you cant pull focus with them."
Strong words but I have no idea what you mean.
My 17-35 and 28-70 and 80-200 are reasonably parfocal and have consistent f - stops.
Personally I hate using lenses where the f stop isn't consistent.

These days with speed booster available for the FS100 i think its a very attractive camera ( as well as the FS700 of course).
Full frame DOF, one extra stop of exposure and IS for $600 - WOW what's not to like.
I just wish they would make one for the F3 and I'd switch to Canon lenses in a heartbeat. The IS is what's missing from my F3.
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The big downside for those lenses (correct me if i'm wrong, since i only took a quick look on some pictures of your lenses) have a really short focus throw less than 90° - thats why it is a pain to pull focus on those lenses... EDIT: no hard focus stops too, but thats not a huge deal to me...
 
stefanhuberfilms said:
The big downside for those lenses (correct me if i'm wrong, since i only took a quick look on some pictures of your lenses) have a really short focus throw less than 90° - thats why it is a pain to pull focus on those lenses... EDIT: no hard focus stops too, but thats not a huge deal to me...
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Both the short focus throw and the lack of hard stops are elminated by the OptiTron.
We also add the IS, and the positive locking of stock EF lenses to eliminate the lens slop in the camera mount.
 

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Well i do understand about the short focus throw.

Jacek - How much is the Optitron? and how about something for Nikon. Nobody makes anything for Nikon these days.
 
Try this:
Sony PMW 350
If you want to generate a lot of material, get tight close ups, be able to zoom and know your focus is good, go with a 2/3" shoulder mounted camera.
An F5 or 55 will be front heavy with a short cine zoom.
There is a reason why film documentaries were shot in 16mm, no one was going to carry around a 35mm film camera, I think the same paradigm still exists with 2/3 verses S35 chips.
 
jameswmulryan said:
There is a reason why film documentaries were shot in 16mm, no one was going to carry around a 35mm film camera, I think the same paradigm still exists with 2/3 verses S35 chips.
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Bingo.

You gotta know what you're up against shooting fast on 35 sized gear. You will likely miss shots shooting doc style 35 the first time.

It's possible to get just as fast shooting 35, but it takes practice and some people have the base skills to not fall so hard first time out, enough to insure they get the chance to do it again. Some don't.
 
stefanhuberfilms said:
sam, does your 28-85 ais lens move back and forth while zooming/focusing or does it keep its size? looks like a nice lens, is it parfocal too?

also, what do you think of the tokina 28-85 f4?
Click to expand...

The 28-85 gets shorter as you become more telephoto.
The total extension is maybe 25mm, quite a lot. At least the lens is made well enough for the front element to be solid at all focal ranges - my canon 24-105 is droopy when extended
That is far from ideal, but with some careful configuration you can use a mbox and get no vignette and minimal light leaks - I use a rubber lens hood to 'fill the gap'
The nikkor 35-70 get longer as it becomes more telephoto - strange mix of design for very similar lens to the 28-85.
Both the 28-85 and 35-70 front element turn when focused - again not ideal and unusable with a Polo on the lens.
Im not sure which I prefer the 28-85 with a little more reach or the 35-70 with a fixed aperture
Neither are parofocal but focus stays in the right ball park during a zoom

Both are fantastic in terms of focus and tactility.

Tonka lenses? I cannot comment on the model you quoted. I did have a 17-55 for a while and consider it to be soft/flarey wide open and the focus throw was unusably short for video use. The 11-16 seems nicer so its worth trying in a shop.. I think all lenses are worth physically trying before purchase.
S
 
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Lenilenapi said:
" All those lenses are total crap because you cant pull focus with them."
Strong words but I have no idea what you mean.
My 17-35 and 28-70 and 80-200 are reasonably parfocal and have consistent f - stops.
Personally I hate using lenses where the f stop isn't consistent.
Click to expand...

The lenses you are talking about are 1st gen AF nikkors?
Yep they are better and mor solid than the current crap being discussed earlier in the thread.

Ive never got on with that gen really, the 17-35 (I have) is just a bit sticky/sicky gritty to focus - I cant really explain it, I dont have a 28-80, I have 3 70-200s different nikkor gens and none has the great focus feel of my $80 100-300 zoom

Consistent Fstop - sure dont we all :) - its all trade offs here - I dont zoom much - just change focal length between shots

S
 
jameswmulryan said:
Try this:
Sony PMW 350
If you want to generate a lot of material, get tight close ups, be able to zoom and know your focus is good, go with a 2/3" shoulder mounted camera.
An F5 or 55 will be front heavy with a short cine zoom.
There is a reason why film documentaries were shot in 16mm, no one was going to carry around a 35mm film camera, I think the same paradigm still exists with 2/3 verses S35 chips.
Click to expand...

Im reading up on this cam probably best discussed on another thead!
 
I played with the current nikkor G 24-70 this weekend

Ive tried this lens before and it had a kind of jump in the focus - this version was much better

Again it zooms long at 24

It seemed that using the included 'flower pot' lens shade, modified, one could create a lens that is quite matte box freindly
 
Morgan,

You have piqued my interest in those lenses, but I was hoping you could just give me a an aproximate number like 120 degress or something so I can compare to my lenses. Hard to see in the photo and I've looked at photos of the lenses on the web and can't tell anything - esp the 28-85. Not easy to find these in shops or rental houses either.

Do you have the first or second version of the 28-85? My 28- 80 looks a touch less than 45 degrees from 3' to infinity. My Zeiss ZF 50 is very short, and my ZF 85 gets to a 45 degrees also. 80- 200 is maybe 80 degrees from 6' (min) to infinity.

Rokinon missed a real opportunity when they made their so-called cine primes by not building in a longer focus throw. They're manual lenses anyway- why not.
 
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