Zoom H4n Settings + Sennheiser Wireless G3 Lav Kit

R

rjs460

Member
Hey guys, I had the wrong title in my other thread, sorry.

I am using the Zoom h4n with Sennhieser Wireless G3 Lav kit. This is my question:

I have my settings at 48 16 bit.wav and Will sync in post with plural eyes. Assume, I am interviewing someone with the lav mic who speaks not too loud or too soft, which is the best AF( on the receiver )and Sensitivity(on transmitter) setting for the lav set and Zoom h4n input level?

For example,

I ran some tests with my zoom input level at about 65, my AF at -18db and my sensitivity at -9db. It sounded pretty clear and not too fuzzy when I brought it on final cut and it never got into the "red" area on the FCP sound monitor.

Based on an average persons voice, which setting is best? which db should I aim for on the FCP audio monitor meter?

Thanks
 
First, record at 48/24, not 48/16. The additional resolution will help if you have to do any noise reduction.

Second, there is no "standard" setting.

Here's the approach I use:

Position mic on talent. Have them speak in the same tone as they'll use for the scene. I'll ask them "will you be screaming, talking loudly, or softly" and then have them go thru the lines which have the most intensity. While they're speaking, adjust the sensitivity so the meter peaks at around 3/4 full deflection. The reason you have to do this is the sennsitivity setting will vary depending on which lav you're using, where it's placed on the actor, and how loudly the actor will be delivering their lines. Once that is done, you can secure the transmitter to the talent and dress the cable.

Next, connect the reciever to the recorder or mixer. I typically set the gain on my G3 receivers to 0db. Put the zoom in record/standby and adjust the gain on the zoom until you're getting about -12 during peaks. Your zoom is now set. So at this point, when changing actors, or mics, the only adjustment you'll be making is the transmitter sensitivity.

Like I said, there is no "set and forget" setting. The primary thing you'll be changing will be the transmitter sensitivity to accomodate different speaking levels and mic placement. When shooting narrative, I often have to make adjustments from scene to scene. In one scene, the actor may be speaking very softly, in another, they may be screaming. The sensitivity will have to be adjusted from one scene to another.

rjs460 said:
Hey guys, I had the wrong title in my other thread, sorry.

I am using the Zoom h4n with Sennhieser Wireless G3 Lav kit. This is my question:

I have my settings at 48 16 bit.wav and Will sync in post with plural eyes. Assume, I am interviewing someone with the lav mic who speaks not too loud or too soft, which is the best AF( on the receiver )and Sensitivity(on transmitter) setting for the lav set and Zoom h4n input level?

For example,

I ran some tests with my zoom input level at about 65, my AF at -18db and my sensitivity at -9db. It sounded pretty clear and not too fuzzy when I brought it on final cut and it never got into the "red" area on the FCP sound monitor.

Based on an average persons voice, which setting is best? which db should I aim for on the FCP audio monitor meter?

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Think of your audio levels as the focus ring on a camera. There is no perfect setting for the focus ring. You need to constantly adjust. One of the many tricky things with wireless audio is that you've got a focus ring on the transmitter, a focus ring on the receiver, and a focus ring on the recorder.
 
Well put, Sam, and the "focus" has to be correct at each stage. You cannot correct the "focus" of the transmitter at the recorder. We audio types call this gain staging, and find that optimum results are obtained by ensuring that each stage is gained properly. Wow, I just used the word gain as a verb.

Sam Mallery said:
Think of your audio levels as the focus ring on a camera. There is no perfect setting for the focus ring. You need to constantly adjust. One of the many tricky things with wireless audio is that you've got a focus ring on the transmitter, a focus ring on the receiver, and a focus ring on the recorder.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks guys.

So what you are saying is that I will basically just have to test my subject within the environment and see what settings are best.

Is it a bad idea to have a large discrepancy in gain btw transmitter and receiver. For instance lets say af is at -18 db and my sensitivity is at 0 db is that bad in any way?

Also, I assume if you are doing run and gun stuff and need to change the gain, you will always do that through the transmitter as you may not be able to get to the talent. Or in that case, should I bump up the input volume on the zoom?
 
Transmitter sensitivity is a completely different entity than reciever gain. Transmitter sensitivity is used to match the talent and lav to the transmitter. Reciever gain is used to match the level of the reciever to the recorder or mixer. The setting of one has nothing to do with the other. Earlier I posted a process for setting up your wireless. It's not about changing settings and seeing what works, it's about taking a methodical approach to gain staging.

By using the approach described, the only thing you'll be changing will be the input level on the zoom. That's the only appropriate place to make momentary changes to level.

If you've set up the sensitivity correctly for the talent, mic, and mic placement (environment does not come into play here other than help determine microphone selection), there will be nothing more you can do with the talent and transmitter. If you've set your gain appropriately on the receiver, you have nothing more to do there.

But what you are describing it EXACTLY the reason that bypassing a production mixer is a bad idea, especially with run and gun work.

rjs460 said:
Thanks guys.

So what you are saying is that I will basically just have to test my subject within the environment and see what settings are best.

Is it a bad idea to have a large discrepancy in gain btw transmitter and receiver. For instance lets say af is at -18 db and my sensitivity is at 0 db is that bad in any way?

Also, I assume if you are doing run and gun stuff and need to change the gain, you will always do that through the transmitter as you may not be able to get to the talent. Or in that case, should I bump up the input volume on the zoom?
Click to expand...
 
gpforet said:
First, record at 48/24, not 48/16. The additional resolution will help if you have to do any noise reduction.

Second, there is no "standard" setting.

Here's the approach I use:

Position mic on talent. Have them speak in the same tone as they'll use for the scene. I'll ask them "will you be screaming, talking loudly, or softly" and then have them go thru the lines which have the most intensity. While they're speaking, adjust the sensitivity so the meter peaks at around 3/4 full deflection. The reason you have to do this is the sennsitivity setting will vary depending on which lav you're using, where it's placed on the actor, and how loudly the actor will be delivering their lines. Once that is done, you can secure the transmitter to the talent and dress the cable.

Next, connect the reciever to the recorder or mixer. I typically set the gain on my G3 receivers to 0db. Put the zoom in record/standby and adjust the gain on the zoom until you're getting about -12 during peaks. Your zoom is now set. So at this point, when changing actors, or mics, the only adjustment you'll be making is the transmitter sensitivity.

Like I said, there is no "set and forget" setting. The primary thing you'll be changing will be the transmitter sensitivity to accomodate different speaking levels and mic placement. When shooting narrative, I often have to make adjustments from scene to scene. In one scene, the actor may be speaking very softly, in another, they may be screaming. The sensitivity will have to be adjusted from one scene to another.
Click to expand...

Okay so let me get this:

1. Hook transmitter up to talent
2. Adjust sensitivity based on their tone, loudness etc
3. Set Receiver(AF) to O db
4. Adjust Zoom recorder for it to peak at about - 12 db


What exactly is -AF out then?
 
AF out is the output gain control on the reciever and determines the level being sent out of the 3.5mm connector. IT can also be thought of as output gain.
 
gpforet said:
AF out is the output gain control on the reciever and determines the level being sent out of the 3.5mm connector. IT can also be thought of as output gain.
Click to expand...

Okay, so why would I want to keep this at 0db and just change the sensitivity? Do you always keep your af out at 0db? Cant a large discrepancy btw af and sensitivity cause a shortage?

Also, thanks for all the help, you guys have been great!

RJS460
 
Sensitivity on the transmitter used to accomodate mic selection, placement, and talent. Forget about the reciever when setting up the transmitter.

Output of the receiver, adjusted by the AF level, is to accomodate the recorder or mixer.

A shortage of what?

Re-read the entire thread here. Everything regarding proper configuration of a transmitter and receiver signal flow is covered.

Have you tried what has been described in my earlier posts? Do that, then if you experience problems, post the specific problem you are having and I'm sure someone can help you.

rjs460 said:
Okay, so why would I want to keep this at 0db and just change the sensitivity? Do you always keep your af out at 0db? Cant a large discrepancy btw af and sensitivity cause a shortage?

Also, thanks for all the help, you guys have been great!

RJS460
Click to expand...
 
After research and phone calls, putting the AF at anything less that -18 DB will cause noise distortion for the Zoom. So I will not put it at -0db as this will cause distortion as the zoom needs to read the -af at nothing less than -18db due to the type of line it is. Then you adjust the sensitivity based on your subject.
 
O.K. let's see if I understand what you're saying. If you set the zoom for it's lowest input sensitivity, then after setting the transmitter as I have described, and setting the reciever for 0db gain, the receiver still sends too much signal to zoom, it that correct?

rjs460 said:
After research and phone calls, putting the AF at anything less that -18 DB will cause noise distortion for the Zoom. So I will not put it at -0db as this will cause distortion as the zoom needs to read the -af at nothing less than -18db due to the type of line it is. Then you adjust the sensitivity based on your subject.
Click to expand...
 
And to add to the confusion, if I put a mixpre between the transmitter and the Zoom (which is what I have), the I should set the transceiver output first, then the field mixer, then the Zoom to what is being debated. Correct?
 
gpforet said:
O.K. let's see if I understand what you're saying. If you set the zoom for it's lowest input sensitivity, then after setting the transmitter as I have described, and setting the reciever for 0db gain, the receiver still sends too much signal to zoom, it that correct?
Click to expand...

According to various sound professionals I called, you do not want to set the receiver below -18db as this sends too much signal.

As for the preamp in btw, I am not sure
 
I just tried this out with my zoom, and I would agree. Going from an Audiotronics Lav through the reciever into the mixpre and into the Zoom, it clipped at anything less than about -12db. I would shoot for -18db as it seems to sound best there. FWIW.

GP, did you mean that setting at 0 is a normal way to approach this or that you have actually used the Zoom set to this in the past? It does not seem that the Zoom wants to be setup for 0db when coming in from line. Seems way to hot, not matter how I set my mixpre or my lav receiver. I'll do more tomorrow.
 
Putting a mixer between the receiver and the recorder completely changes the gain staging. The original discussion did not include a mixer in the signal path.

Using the mixpre is a different situation because the mixpre has better preamps and therefore you'll obtain a better s/n ratio by turning down the gain on the receiver, and using more gain in the mixpre.

8string said:
I just tried this out with my zoom, and I would agree. Going from an Audiotronics Lav through the reciever into the mixpre and into the Zoom, it clipped at anything less than about -12db. I would shoot for -18db as it seems to sound best there. FWIW.

GP, did you mean that setting at 0 is a normal way to approach this or that you have actually used the Zoom set to this in the past? It does not seem that the Zoom wants to be setup for 0db when coming in from line. Seems way to hot, not matter how I set my mixpre or my lav receiver. I'll do more tomorrow.
Click to expand...
 
O db is not below -18, but above -18. Yes, 0 is a hotter signal than -18. Go with whatever works.

rjs460 said:
According to various sound professionals I called, you do not want to set the receiver below -18db as this sends too much signal.

As for the preamp in btw, I am not sure
Click to expand...
 
I am not saying to set the zoom for 0, set the zoom for minimum sensitivity, set the sennheheiser receiver at 0, then adjust to the zoom input level to hit about -12 on the zoom meters. We seem to be bouncing around here, and I'm not sure where Audiotronics came in since we were talking about sennheiser. If you got someone else helping you, and you're getting what you want, go for it.

8string said:
I just tried this out with my zoom, and I would agree. Going from an Audiotronics Lav through the reciever into the mixpre and into the Zoom, it clipped at anything less than about -12db. I would shoot for -18db as it seems to sound best there. FWIW.

GP, did you mean that setting at 0 is a normal way to approach this or that you have actually used the Zoom set to this in the past? It does not seem that the Zoom wants to be setup for 0db when coming in from line. Seems way to hot, not matter how I set my mixpre or my lav receiver. I'll do more tomorrow.
Click to expand...
 
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