ZOOM h4n preamps are crap

Blackout

Blackout

Veteran
Well there you go. The title of the post says it all.

I had some very major equipment stolen. Sound Devices recorders and mixers amongst other things. The only piece of equipment that managed to remain unscathed was my mic, the Sanken CS-3e.

I had a film coming up and I did not have money or credit to buy new gear to replace my stuff or even to rent (my credit is destroyed) but I took the gig anyway, and in desperation bought a Zoom H4n and hooked it up to my $1450 super cardiod Sanken CS3e.

Well, the results were GOD AWFUL and it now convinces me that the Zoom H4N is a piece of $%!T and anyone singing its praises is deaf.

If you use it's on board microphones to record ambiance and nat sound, it's fine, but GOD forbid you plug a REAL mic into it's XLR inputs and use phantom power. I don't even know how to fully explain how bad the sound quality is because people will probably think these samples I am going to post are GOOD, but make no mistake, they are utter crap.

Mic choice is superb - a sanken cs3-e, mic placement is superb, just about one to two feet away. YET, for some reason, on the Zoom H4N the recordings sound stale, distanced, echo filled, bassy, and just plain LAME!

They were so bad, that we coudln't use them on the film and had to go INTO THE CAMERA xlr on a Sony Ex1.

These are samples of during the shooting with the Zoom h4n that had to be discarded because the producers were unhappy:

http://www.blackout.com/blackout/zoom/MONO-000.wav

http://www.blackout.com/blackout/zoom/MONO-004.wav


Mind you, this is the best mic in the world right next to the actors faces and it gets the equivalent of "gh1 MUD" but in the audio.

The same mic to a Sound Devices 702 or even a mixpre was a different beasy entirely.

How people say they are using the Zoom H4n in professional productions blows my mind.. it sounds like crap. No if ands or buts.
 
You sure you've pointed the mike to the mouth every time ? And you're sure you weren't pointing above the heads or behind the persons ?

And you've selected only the input 1 and not MIC and input 1 and 2 at same time ?

It also depends on the location...you can't remove "natural reverbs".

But maybe if you post it with image it's easier to hear
 
The positioning of the mic was perfect, and very close, I know my mic and how it best captures dialog. The room was not too reverby. Regular large room with carpet floors, the scene was a dinner party., and they are discussing a script, they have a storyboard out.

Upon taking the xlr out of the zoom and going into the camera's input, the sound suddenly became fine. it really blew my mind how muddy the zoom sounded and I thought I was insane. Again this is a $1400 Sanken cs-3e mic. Top of the line. I also put in fresh batteries just in cas eit was the power that was off. I made sure it was on phantom 48 not 25.

The EX1 is not that great either but compared to the zoom it was leagues ahead, as soon as I plugged into that all was clear. I tried pluging the mic into both input 1, then input 2 of the h4n. They were both selected though, not both mic and input 1 & 2, but input 1 & 2. I couldn't get just one of them to light up/ work in mono mode.. could that be the issue? Am I missing something? Scanned through the manual and couldn't seem to select just input 1 or 2, they both light up... then I monitored in mono mode. Also the input level was very low... this is a hot condenser mic.. I don't get it, I had to have the input up to near 100 and the conditions were perfect. I find it hard to believe that the $20 on board mics sounded better than my $1400 sanken super cardiod.

I am going to return this h4n with the slight chance it is defective but for some reason I doubt it, I bet it just sucks. That or I have gone fully insane.

I had read some reviews and figured the preamps aren't going to be stellar when I'm used to my sound devices pres but I didn't think they would be THIS bad. I would love it if I am just completely missing something and made some user error... tell me it is so... tell me I am insane! One of the guys listened and said the sound was great but he has no idea what he is talking about.. to him just being able to make out the words is great sound. I can't post the same take from the camera because they have the footage but it is infinitely clearer.
 
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I realized that when monitoring the live input there's a weird echoey 'out of phase" quality to the sound, but when you play it back, it sounds 'normal' again.
Also, judging the sound quality from the headphone output is not possible, because it has much more noise than the actual recording when you play it on a proper monitoring system. It probably has it's own tonality too. In short- YOU CAN'T TRUST what you hear from the headphone out.

I don't use the preamps, as I go in from a SD 302, but was happy with them for messing around doing scratch tracks.
 
- To add to this conversation -
If you plug the zoom into a mixer (at a concert lets say) and the stereo mics are also picking up sound - upon playback, you will get a crazy echo, that sounds horrible. But when you import onto the computer, the seperate line in track will sound perfect. The same with the stereo mics.
 
It's possible you have a defective unit. The preamps aren't stellar (I've tried low level Foley work with an NTG-3 through the XLR, level at 100, and the hiss was way too loud for a professional recording) but going through my MixPre it was fine.

Hiss is the only issue I've got with it though, and not any of the echo/bassy issues you've described.
 
I always use mics with small devices like the Zoom that have variable voltage input. For example, the Schoeps MK41 with a CMC6 body will happily run in the 12-30 volt area which is where most tiny recorders operate, depending of course, on load.
 
I've gone directly into the H4n with a couple of different phantom power mics, and the only significant noise present was the self-noise of the mics themselves. Then again, I'm a noob. I've got some side-by-side recordings using an Alesis MultiMix 8 FW going into BoomRecorder, and I certainly can't tell the difference between. The Mixer function on the H4n, which is a bit non-intuitive, seems to be a better way to make level adjustments (especially in 4-channel mode) than the main level controls. Maybe me taking advantage of those has something to do with it.

My suggestion is to use what works for you. For what I'm doing, the H4n is certainly acceptable for most any situation where I don't have time or opportunity for a full system. Would I rather use an R44? Of course. However, at the current price point, I'm baffled by anyone complaining about the sound.

Then again, maybe it's just that I'm a 48 year-old deaf guy who thinks that he can still hear. - Tim
 
Tim Joy said:
I realized that when monitoring the live input there's a weird echoey 'out of phase" quality to the sound, but when you play it back, it sounds 'normal' again.
Also, judging the sound quality from the headphone output is not possible, because it has much more noise than the actual recording when you play it on a proper monitoring system. It probably has it's own tonality too. In short- YOU CAN'T TRUST what you hear from the headphone out.

I don't use the preamps, as I go in from a SD 302, but was happy with them for messing around doing scratch tracks.
Click to expand...

The 'out of phase' quality you are talking about is the slight delay of sound to your headphones from processing time, so you are hearing a tiny few millisecond echo when monitoring in headphones on the zoom.

That's not what I am talking about though, I have imported the files, even at 24bit 96khz mic sanken mic sounds like poop and I know it's not the mic so it must be the on board zoom preamps just can't hack it or there is not enough phantom power goign to the mic or something. I plug the mic into a high end mixer and it's night and day.
 
Blackout said:
But I have heard the zoom clips when going line in from a sound devices?
Click to expand...

Sound Devices uses pro line level (+4dBu) and the Zoom is looking for consumer line level (-10dBV). Due to units being odd and bizarre, that's 11dB + change difference which makes the Zoom easier to clip than you'd hope for.

The Zoom clips at +18dBu though from the line level (volume set to 1.0). MixPre limiters naively kick in at +18dBu (which in this setting, makes the limiters worthless). However, you can set the limiters on the MixPre lower (it's just cumbersome and hard to do accurately) and make it work.
 
Has anyone tried the Zoom H4n with a Juicedlink (offering phantom power) running straight into the 1/8" "ext mic" jack?

I'm in this same boat with looking for a mic-pre for the H4N and I've been hearing good things and clips from the Juicedlink devices.
 
thisisapocalypse said:
Has anyone tried the Zoom H4n with a Juicedlink (offering phantom power) running straight into the 1/8" "ext mic" jack?

I'm in this same boat with looking for a mic-pre for the H4N and I've been hearing good things and clips from the Juicedlink devices.
Click to expand...
Zoom H4n & JuicedLink sound great together through the 1/8" jack. Plus you don't have to change batteries nearly as often.
 
Gohanto said:
Sound Devices uses pro line level (+4dBu) and the Zoom is looking for consumer line level (-10dBV). Due to units being odd and bizarre, that's 11dB + change difference which makes the Zoom easier to clip than you'd hope for.
Click to expand...

I'm an audio novice so maybe the following applies or maybe not, but I did see this posted somewhere: "If the problem people are running into is finding the MixPre output too hot, floating pin 3 reduces the level by 6dB. Problem solved." Is that accurate?
 
Ive been on an emotional rollercoaster as to wether or not to go for a h4n for getting extra "Foley" sounds to use on our film. Just when ive made up my mind that this could be the piece of kit for me after trawling the internet for hours i find something like this that puts me back to square 1! i was hoping some of you could put me straight.

were fairly low budget but are using decent kit elsewhere and id hoped that the zoom with a Sennheiser 416 plugged into it would give better or at least quality on apar with the location sound were getting recording to a dvx camrea via my SQN 4 series mixer with sennheiser 416 . Am i wrong?I wanted to get a field recorder to get nice quality foley sounds out and about hastle free with just my mic in some pretty tricky places and was led to believe that the pre amps even in cheaper handheld recorders like the H4N would be far better than what im getting from my old SQN 4 series because the modern electronics are much more advanced now. This thread suggests id be very wrong to do that.

What would you recommend as my best option? I need something asap
 
Blackout said:
The 'out of phase' quality you are talking about is the slight delay of sound to your headphones from processing time, so you are hearing a tiny few millisecond echo when monitoring in headphones on the zoom.

That's not what I am talking about though, I have imported the files, even at 24bit 96khz mic sanken mic sounds like poop and I know it's not the mic so it must be the on board zoom preamps just can't hack it or there is not enough phantom power goign to the mic or something. I plug the mic into a high end mixer and it's night and day.
Click to expand...

I'd love to hear a recording made of this night and day difference, one from the Zoom, and another from something you find acceptable. You've peaked my interest enough that I'll wait to hear the results, or do an A/B test myself to see what it sounds like before using it in production again.
 
Just hook up a phantom power supply inline and you will know right away if it is the undervoltage on the +48 side. The Sanken requires plus or minus 4 volts from 48, but it also depends on the current draw. You have to test it because some mics that are specced at +48 will run fine at +32. A lot of them, however, do not. Another way to look at it is that the two don't get along, so don't put them in the same room together. If you want to do a lot of work with portable devices, you can get a mic that runs reliably at low voltage, or just get an inline amp or P48 power supply.
 
DrDave said:
I always use mics with small devices like the Zoom that have variable voltage input. For example, the Schoeps MK41 with a CMC6 body will happily run in the 12-30 volt area which is where most tiny recorders operate, depending of course, on load.
Click to expand...
DrDave, do you have experience using a H4n with a CMC641 mic? Because that is exactly the setup I was considering using for interior dialogue in my next short film.

When the CMC641 is plugged directly into the H4n, can you get the quality of sound that the mic is known for? Or does plugging such the mic straight into the H4n reduce the audio quality to the point that using such a high quality mic is redundant?
 
Unfortunately I have only worked with the Zoom H2 and a bunch of the high end flash recorders. I would assume the H4n is similar, but I haven' tried it.
I have a modded Dell X1 (memory and flash drive) so when I go mobile I just take that and the FF400. And if that is too heavy I go with the Fostex FR2LE. But the Zoom H2 is great, it's just that if I am going to use the Schoeps or the Sennheisers I reach for the high end gear as well, and one of the reasons is for example the exact repeatability of the digital gain on the FF400, plus the amazing pres drawn from the Micstasy. Plus it is 100 percent hum free, a big deal IMHO. But I have never had a problem with the CMC6 (not the XT) plus the MK41 plugging in to anything. You can get the battery powered body that runs on a watch battery as well and plug it right into the camera, so you just have the mic and a cable, then you can mount the mic right on the cam. Four mics is way better than two, and an RME quadmic and a hotrodded Zoom H2 makes a high end 4 track flash recorder if you don't want to bring the laptop. Or a 4 channel backup using the cloning outputs of totalmix on the RME FF400. Backup is good. For some reason, I like seeing the waveform on the X1. It is so reassuring to know that the sound is actually being recorded, and you can play back the recorded audio whilst recording. NB: if it is just dialog consider the Zoom H2 on a boom. The MK41 is an amazing mic, but you could buy a zoom and a couple of HF10s and still have lunch money. Or for a bit more you could grab a 7D. The Zoom H2 has no phantom power.
 
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