Zoom H4N, or something else?

Well unless you have an interface for your narrative work already, the H4n will serve well for that and maybe any other sounds you want to record. I don't imagine you want to have to record video every time you do VO and then split the audio from the video and render it out to bring into a sound program to edit... It is much more convenient and you will have more options and better quality with the H4n.
 
Your getting a lot of opinions and some pretty mixed signals. Your solution will depend on your expectations and budget. Work through the issues.

Starting off with the commonly held belief that DSLR audio is not very good, you will probably want dual audio of some sort.

You own a NTG-2 which is commonly thought to be a bad match for the H4n do to gain issues. You might consider a more expensive recorder.

If you are going to stick with a NTG-2 and purchase an H4n, you will likely need a mixer to really make this work. A mixer is a good thing anyway in most cases. I am not sure if a juiced link really qualifies; can you effectively ride levels with one? Does it have good limiters? There is more to this than adding gain with pre amps. PSC and Rolls make some econo mixers, but Sound Devices is favored my many pros here in the US and costs more.

If you were going to a purchase both a JL box and recorder, you are approaching the money for something like a DR680 which for two channels, might be a single box solution.

Consider a hotter mic like a NTG-3, or others, and go direct to a cheapo recorder, and maybe you don't need to purchase a mixer or JL box.

Now my opinion which might bust your budget a bit, but will really a good quality kit. First, keep your NTG2, it is a perfectly decent mic from the tests I have heard. Next purchase a Sound Devices new model MixPre + DR-100. This will cost you about $1100 for both. IMHO, the DR100 is better IMHO than the Zoom for reasons previously stated. And the MixPre is a tool which you can grow any audio kit with. Pro level pre-amps, limiters and controls + USB connectivity in a compact package.

My second choice would be to get a better recorder like a DR-680 and quit.

Grant
 
would you guys recommend the Juiced Link CX231 or DT454 if the budget was available, is the DT454 worth the extra cost or will the CX231 do the job
 
I don't know what other people think so I may get a lot of angry comments here, but my opinion is that the JL "mixers" are not a good choice for serious work. They are an accessary for your DSLR But definately not pro audio equipment. We have mentioned the Sound Devices mixers as an alternative, as well Grant has given some great idea's. I suggest looking into going that route instead of the JL option.
 
I need to clarify one comment from my last post with regards to the DR680 which was nuanced about mixing.

"If you were going to a purchase both a JL box and recorder, you are approaching the money for something like a DR680 which for two channels, might be a single box solution"

The DR680 actually records 6 channels with phantom power or more like 4. But IMHO, i would be reluctant to try and use it for a single box solution for more that 2 channels, maybe with the exception of an acoustic music group or something where you didn't have to ride the levels much.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
Your getting a lot of opinions and some pretty mixed signals. Your solution will depend on your expectations and budget. Work through the issues.

Starting off with the commonly held belief that DSLR audio is not very good, you will probably want dual audio of some sort.

You own a NTG-2 which is commonly thought to be a bad match for the H4n do to gain issues. You might consider a more expensive recorder.

If you are going to stick with a NTG-2 and purchase an H4n, you will likely need a mixer to really make this work. A mixer is a good thing anyway in most cases. I am not sure if a juiced link really qualifies; can you effectively ride levels with one? Does it have good limiters? There is more to this than adding gain with pre amps. PSC and Rolls make some econo mixers, but Sound Devices is favored my many pros here in the US and costs more.

If you were going to a purchase both a JL box and recorder, you are approaching the money for something like a DR680 which for two channels, might be a single box solution.

Consider a hotter mic like a NTG-3, or others, and go direct to a cheapo recorder, and maybe you don't need to purchase a mixer or JL box.

Now my opinion which might bust your budget a bit, but will really a good quality kit. First, keep your NTG2, it is a perfectly decent mic from the tests I have heard. Next purchase a Sound Devices new model MixPre + DR-100. This will cost you about $1100 for both. IMHO, the DR100 is better IMHO than the Zoom for reasons previously stated. And the MixPre is a tool which you can grow any audio kit with. Pro level pre-amps, limiters and controls + USB connectivity in a compact package.

My second choice would be to get a better recorder like a DR-680 and quit.

Grant
Click to expand...


Hi Grant, i currently only own a h4n, no mic or mixer. I'm completely open to selling off the h4n and opting for a entry level pro solution as I have quickly found out sound is EVERYTHING.

What reasonable priced sound recorder would you recommend if i did purchase the HTG 3 and fecked the h4n into the bin?

I have a budget of about €1500 / $2200 to get a good sound setup (mic and recorder or mic, mixer plus h4n) to ideally record off camera

thanks everyone for your patience and advice for a newbie
 
irlray said:
Forgive my lack of knowledge. Do you just connect the h4n to the juiced link via an xlr cable and then the htg2 to the h4n via xlr cable?And finally with that setup can you also connect directly to a 5d and dual record to the h4n?
Click to expand...

NTG2 XLR out to JuicedLink, then JuicedLink mic out (3.5mm) to H4n mic input (3.5mm, below the onboard mic)
 
irlray said:
Hi Grant, i currently only own a h4n, no mic or mixer. I'm completely open to selling off the h4n and opting for a entry level pro solution as I have quickly found out sound is EVERYTHING.

What reasonable priced sound recorder would you recommend if i did purchase the HTG 3 and fecked the h4n into the bin?

I have a budget of about €1500 / $2200 to get a good sound setup (mic and recorder or mic, mixer plus h4n) to ideally record off camera

thanks everyone for your patience and advice for a newbie
Click to expand...

I thought you already had a NTG-2, sorry about my confusion. I think if you looked at my previous post, most of my recommendations are already there. Though if you already had a H4n, I would be inclined to use it until you outgrow it.

For me, I would always choose a mixer if I could afford it. It is a place you can grow from with any kit and has features which can really improve your field recording. It will really help your H4n if you keep it. So I suppose I would get a Mix-Pre if possible and then buy whatever mics make you happy.

If you went with a mid-priced recorder; I have a DR-680 and it is good for the money. There are many others, but I don't have experience with them. Most have been well discussed here, so search or ask those who own the other recorders.

Regarding mics, the most basic setup would be a shotgun, hyper and lav. A low end kit, and what many here might consider the entry level for decent sound is:
NTG-2 Shotgun
Oktava Hyper
Countryman EMW Lav

A step up into the mid-level mics might include
NTG-3 Shotgun
AT4053B Hyper
Rode Lav or Pinmic

I own 5/6 of these mics and can vouch for there basic quality and value. No doubt there will be some other suggestions, but all of these choices are pretty mainstream and the arguments against would be personal preference mostly.

So for $2200 you could come very close to getting the three midrange mics and a mix pre, and keep the H4n. And that would be a decent kit for the $$ However, there was no discussion here of wind protection, pole, cables, mounts, headphones and the like. All of which are needed and possibly essential. So if you are short that stuff, then you should probably think about the more economical mic set and flesh out the kit with the extra stuff. It just never ends.....

Grant
 
It just never ends.....
Click to expand...

Amen.

One thing to keep in mind - in many ways the recommendations here are comparing apples and oranges to accommodate price. As a general rule, audio equipment performance increases exponentially with price. The preamps on a sound device mixer are in a whole different universe than a h4n, which is light years above most DSLR's.

Grant's offered some solid options. One thing to keep in mind when deciding - your audio equipment will hold it's value far longer than your camera. Best general audio advice I got was buy the best you can afford to start, then trade up when you have to. That's proven to be far longer than I ever expected.

Troll the thread, there's a ton of info that saved us a bundle. Also don't be afraid to consider used. Sound Device stuff has been rumored to be blast resistant.
 
Mitch.Kear said:
I don't know what other people think so I may get a lot of angry comments here, but my opinion is that the JL "mixers" are not a good choice for serious work. They are an accessary for your DSLR But definately not pro audio equipment. We have mentioned the Sound Devices mixers as an alternative, as well Grant has given some great idea's. I suggest looking into going that route instead of the JL option.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this. JL preamps do not have limiters, and the limiter is the tool that will save your butt. If you can get a MixPre-D you'll have a piece of gear that you'll never need to unload - totally worth the money! Save until it hurts and make it happen.

That being said.... many won't listen to that advice, so for those who appreciate the concept of using a preamp, the JL stuff can help if all you have is Mic level inputs like on a DSLR. Below is a little vid I made showing 2 JL preamps:
 
Thanks so much to all for responding to the other guy's questions. :happy:

Seriously though, it's still clearly a very useful discussion.

But I am still not clear on what to do given my budget constraints. Ggrantly said the NTG-2 and h4n are a bad match because of low gain issues. What about the h4n used with lavs? Does the comparable Tascam recorder share the h4n's low gain problem?
 
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I think the DR-100 is a superior unit with cleaner gain than the H4N. That being said, you are skipping an important element in your signal chain: The PREAMP. You're not supposed to be just plugging your mic into your recorder. You need the preamp to pump up your signal so it almost doesn't matter what recorder you are going into. The MixPre-D is where you need to be IMO. But you most likely didn't budget for that right? OK, until you do get the proper tool, you can plug your mic into the DR-100 and get a decent signal if you keep the mic where it needs to be (within 2' of the mouth) and record in 24bit (for more headroom, allowing you to turn up your tracks in post without adding to much noise). So I say you get the mic and DR-100, then just save for the rest of the tools you need. There is no way around it.
 
I tend to think that these NTG-2 issues of recording too low on the H4N and DR-100 are greatly exaggerated by people misusing their gear. I still say get the DR-100, as it sounds better and has quieter pres, which means if you need to boost your levels in post you will be adding less noise than with the H4N. And and for the record, using the battery in the NTG-2 reduces it's sensitivity by 6db, which is not good for your signal to noise ratio. That is common for any mic running on battery. Which is another reason why a preamp is a good thing. You can run 5-6 hours with a MixPre with one mic using phantom. Anyway, I don't see any reason why anyone would want the H4N over the DR-100. The cost the same, the DR--100 has better pres, limiters, a real dial for level control. But to each his own...
 
Chadfish said:
I tend to think that these NTG-2 issues of recording too low on the H4N and DR-100 are greatly exaggerated by people misusing their gear. I still say get the DR-100, as it sounds better and has quieter pres, which means if you need to boost your levels in post you will be adding less noise than with the H4N. And and for the record, using the battery in the NTG-2 reduces it's sensitivity by 6db, which is not good for your signal to noise ratio. That is common for any mic running on battery. Which is another reason why a preamp is a good thing. You can run 5-6 hours with a MixPre with one mic using phantom. Anyway, I don't see any reason why anyone would want the H4N over the DR-100. The cost the same, the DR--100 has better pres, limiters, a real dial for level control. But to each his own...
Click to expand...

I agree both on user error and the DR-100. Did not know about the battery thing though, thanks a ton for making me aware of that!
 
Metrolens said:
the h4n might still be a viable (albeit basic) option.
Click to expand...

Yes it is, the DR-100 NTG 2 will definitely help improve your sound, but as suggested a separate pre will help greatly increase it. If you don't have a great budget I still suggest NTG2 -> Sound Devices MM1 -> Tascam DR-100.

Though with more serious work upgrades are due.

If you don't work that much renting is another option most people seem to avoid.... but you can use great quality gear at a low cost.
 
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