ZOOM H4N and XLR "Y" Splitter cable?

[Doc Bernard]

I have never used that function. But if it is what I suspect, a mono mixdown, I would be cautious about that. When you combine two signals into a mono one, you get phase cancellations, which would explain your "quieter" level.

Let me look into that.

 

[Richard Crowley]

I'd like to see your math on that, Richard. And keep in mind, his "loads" and "impedances" are pretty cut and dried in this application. Mic, PS, Y cable, H4 versus the alternative..

A quick check of the manufacturers' specifications available online reveals that the NTG3 has an output impedance of 25 ohms(!), while the mic input impedance of an H4n is 1000 ohms. If you were trying to have the NTG3 feed 5 or 6 inputs, then you might see a noticeable signal loss. The NTG3, in particular has an unusually low output impedance, making it capable of driving long lines and/or many mic inputs. If Mettasphor is worried about loud signals (the original reason for using staggered recording gains), then poor SNR would appear to be not on his primary list of concerns.http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?45154-Mettsaphor

 

[Richard Crowley]

If you have an electronic signal/voltage, and you parallel it (split it), the amperage of that signal is cut in half.

No you are starting with an incomplete understanding of Ohm's Law. Whether the voltage is even affected at all is completely dependent on the source and load impedances. If the load impedance is several times higher than the source impedance, there will be no significant change to the signal amplitude (voltage). And that is what is happening in this case: the Rode NTG3 with a 25 ohm source impedance into the Zoom H4n mic input with a 1000 ohm impedance. That means the load impedance is 40x higher than the source impedance. Rather like worrying about how many toy wagons you can hitch to a caterpillar tractor.

In the audio world a "bridging" load is considered to be 5-10x higher than the source impedance. 40x is so much higher, it doesn't even factor into the equation in real-world situation. Most modern microphone inputs are 10-20x higher impedance than your average mic source impedance (which is ~250 ohms). Many decades ago (likely before many people reading this were even born) they used matching impedances (like 600 ohms) to maximize POWER transmission. But that concept pretty much died in the early 1960s with the end of the era of fire-bottles (tubes). We now use a more modern concept of low-impedance source, high-impedance load, and constant voltages.

Amperage is the amount of work possible in a signal. If you have cut that in half........that's half the power.

Incomplete. If by "work" you mean power, that is determined by both the impedance and the voltage.

In audio, and any other form of electronics, the main components are resistance, voltage and amperage. Cut either V or A (or increase R), and you have signal degradation.

That is a misleading oversimplification and it is not applicable in this example for the reasons already explained.

And keep in mind he is using an NTG series mic, not the hottest output mic out there.

But since Mettasphor is worried about clipping high-level signals, that seems to be almost completely irrelevant. If Mettasphor were instead concerned about low level signals getting buried in the mud, then the discussion would be different.

 

[Doc Bernard]

On Ohm's Law.....I am pretty good on the understanding. I lived with it for years, both as an electrician and a lead electronics tech for a mic manufacturer.

But since Mettasphor is worried about clipping high-level signals, that seems to be almost completely irrelevant. If Mettasphor were instead concerned about low level signals getting buried in the mud, then the discussion would be different.

Ahh, but the rub is, to get usable signals with the config he is considering, he will have to overdrive the preamps on the H4n, in order to make up the loss of gain (both by using the NTG, and the resultant loss of signal by splitting it with the Y cable), which in turn will raise the noise floor through the H4n. So we are back to why a Y cable would not help the situation, but make it worse.

He is already working at a deficit, no reason to compound what issues he already has.

Seriously, Mettsaphor, you need to really try to push for a mixer. Even renting one. A lot of issues will be resolved with a mixer here. You won't need the power supply or any kind of outside splitter (hardware or Y cable). And your gain staging and final recorded signal will be much cleaner with a lower SNR. Your life will be much simpler, LOL.

All I can say is I have used the NTG series mics direct into my H4n just for giggles, and I can say, even running into one channel - - not splitting the signal into 2 channels, I found the signal unusable IMO without my mixer. I had to pump my input level high, and as stated before, the pre's on the H4n are fairly sub-standard and noisy.

Just my experience with the exact equipment you will be using, Mettsaphor. And each engineer has their own way of doing things and experiences, as seen here. I am just showing you my way, Richard is showing his. YMMV.

 

[Mettsaphor]

Thanks guys,
Yeah I believe your right Doc, I'm going to do my best to get a mixer to sort this whole mess out. It's fairly frusterating that there never seems to be "enough budget" for sound. lol. And I believe we all know how important the sound is!

I do know of a friend that has a Samson MDR1064 mixer ( http://www.samash.com/p/Samson_MDR1064%20Mixer_-49995968 ) that he uses for music, (playing acoustic gigs etc.) but hes not using it at the moment. I know this is NOT ideal by far,(Large bulky, needs to be plugged into an outlet etc.) but do you think in a last resort it may work??

 

[Richard Crowley]

That Samson mixer may very well have mic preamps that are no better than in the Zoom H4n. It seems possible that while it MAY be of some benefit, it could just as easily ADD more noise (since you can't bypass the Zoom preamps). Nothing beats actually borrowing it and trying it. And since it is YOUR mic and recorder and (borrowed) mixer, nobody here can do that experiment better than YOU! Set it up in your bedroom on a quiet evening and listen for the signal to noise ratio (SNR) with the NTG3 plugged directly into the Zoom vs. routing it through the Samson mixer. Once you get the mixer and plug everything together, the experiment shouldn't take much longer than it took to read this.

I don't have a Zoom H4n (or access to one) so I haven't tried that combination myself. If the noise and gain situation is truly as Mr. Bernard describes, then staggering the record levels to accommodate peak signals is the least of your worries and only of academic interest at this point.

 

[Mettsaphor]

Thanks Richard,
I will have to try the "set-up" tomorrow and I will let you guys know how it goes. Agian, I really appreciate everyones input and help here!