Zoom F4 on sale
- Thread starter graywolf
- Start date
Amazing how the price of gear has come down through the years. I still remember a few years ago when the original Tascam DR-60D was being rumored at a supposedly $400 price point, and people read the specs and marvelled at how cheap that was for what you got. Today the successor DR-60Dmkii can regularly be had for under $150. The F4 is a very capable bit of kit, and already hitting the $600 level. I keep repeating: the days of expensive gear are over and companies like Sound Devices are going to have their market taken away. To which the usual response is that SD is pro gear and therefore their market is "safe". I don't think so. Look to what happened to the prices of cameras - used to be a Sony topline digital would set you back $200K, today you get more and better for a fraction of that, and the market for $200K cameras is not looking too good. Give it a few more years, and SD will be in trouble unless they can adapt.
Only if the cheaper gear is good enough for the pros. The F4 is an impressive recorder but it doesn't have the same performance as the SD equivalent. ( SD 2-stage analog limiters will always beat out digital equivalents )
Cary Knoop
Veteran
They won't, quality comes with a price and those who can afford and appreciate it will keep wanting those devices.
Are there independent tests published on the sound quality of the Zoom F4?
I looked at the usual test sites and no hard numbers only puffery.
The main drawback of the Zoom F4 recorder is that it uses digital limiters after the signal has already been converted from analog to digital and this won't prevent clipping, where analog input limiters ( like the SD 2-stage limiters ) pretty much guarantee no signal clipping.
It won't be the F4, but the F4 is an example of how they are coming closer. It's just a matter of time when they'll reach the level of "good enough" for any pro work - I give it 5 years. As to "won't ever happen" - they said the same thing about cameras, and today we have cameras at a fraction of the price, even at the very top level - from over $200K - today you can get a top Alexa for $65K. That's like a 70% price decline. Adapt, or die. The days where you can charge $1K for a mixpre-d that's just a mixer are coming to an end - very soon, there will be cheap gear that'll do all that the mixpre does at equal or better quality at a fraction of the price today. It'll happen - you can bet on it. We've seen it before, we'll see it again.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
Are you saying that top quality pre-amp and AD/DA technology has gotten a lot less expensive over, say, the last 10 years?
I just do not see that, and the same with top quality microphones and speakers.
It starts with budget gear - the budget gear today is cheaper and better than yesterday's top gear (think Nagra recorders) due to advances in technology in addition to manufacturing. First the budget gear gets better and better, and displaces lower-tier pro gear. Then the same process moves up the value chain, eventually, yes, reaching the very top - as happened with cameras. And it's started on the sound gear too - including microphones. Let's see what the Aputure Deity amounts to - IF it can reach, as supposedly is their ambition, the quality of the Sennheiser 415 while better built and at a tiny fraction of the price, then that's another step up the ladder, and eventually the march of progress will start knocking on the door of Schoeps and Sanken. It's a matter of time. And a good thing it's happening - greater access for more people means better opportunities for all - win-win.
graywolf
Well-known member
I and some others have gone through this over on gearslutz, those of us who have the recorder say the limiter works fine, those who have a firm opinion say it can't. It kind of looks like the mic pre's, A/D's, and limiters are all in one chip. Most probably the limiter lowers the gain on the pre's. And certainly, the default -2db fast attack setting of the limiters only purpose can be to protect the circuits themselve. Because the audio result would be pretty much the same as clipping anyway. Used intelligently (-6db slow attack) they seem to act more like a compressor. While I have not tried it with gun shots, simply yelling into the mic from one inch away, I cannot get the recorder to clip with those settings.
Now a very fast attack super loud noise like a nearby gunshot may get through and cause converter clipping, but I am not interested in trying that experiment. Tell you what, you buy one and give it a try. Please report the results here.
graywolf
Well-known member
The F4 supposedly has the same sound quality as the F8. There are comparisons out there. About 1/2 the people who comment on them say they can clearly hear the $$$$. The other half say they cannot. 50/50 usually indicates that there is no real difference. The only way to really tell is by double blind tests (neither the tester, non the listener knows which is which).
Beyond a certain point all you are paying extra for is prestige. However, I am quite willing to entertain the idea that the Zoom F series are not as rugged as the more expensive recorders. On the other hand, is a SD 633 more reliable than 5-6 Zoom F4's. But it is your money, so your choice.
I did read a post somewhere by a guy who said be bought an F4 as a backup to his SD, and for low budget jobs. He said, as I recall, that he could hear no difference in sound quality. Seems to me that people like him who have both are the only ones who can really make the comparison between the brands.
Only having the F4, all I can really say is that it is a good recorder. I had been holding out for years waiting for a digital recorder that I could afford, that compared favorably with professional tape recorders.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
THis is one of those silly threads. Things don't constantly get cheaper. Film equipment was really expensive because it used some very expensive components and it had a small market. That combo will always add a lot to cost. Many of the expensive components have gotten cheaper and the market has greatly expanded so those have both driven price down. Cameras are a lot cheaper for the quality but lenses have not dropped nearly as much, because there hasn't been a big change in the price of the expensive components. The electronics has all gotten a lot cheaper and more importantly integrated. Having more on one chip means cheaper fabrication costs and cheaper shielding. But those expensive components have probably reached a plateau. I can see a bit more integration but even now the limit is more about the rest of the hardware. The physical hardware has not gotten much cheaper. The big difference between a Zoom and say a SD box is the physical hardware as much as anything else. The price reflects that and that SD has a more limited market. The F series is probably underwritten to a certain extent by Zooms large consumer division, SD doesn't have any consumer products. If they bring the F series up to the SD boxes in fit and finish and added internal components etc. I seriously doubt they would be at the price point they are at.
If they are smart, and they seem to be, they are not looking to compete with SD they are looking squarely at Tascam and the Prosumer market. Maybe like Tascam they will add a high end professional option later? But there is a very large market in professional but sub top end professional. Everyone from film students and weekend warrior filmmakers to professionals who are not working on big budget projects. The F is a great entry level to pro gear and it's also a great for folks who don't need the tank proof construction and can deal with a few less features for a whole lot less money. The F4 might get to the $500 point but lower than that and I think Zoom doesn't make enough money on them.
I don't see it getting lower because I don't see the prices of XLR connectors and such getting a whole lot cheaper.
If they are smart, and they seem to be, they are not looking to compete with SD they are looking squarely at Tascam and the Prosumer market. Maybe like Tascam they will add a high end professional option later? But there is a very large market in professional but sub top end professional. Everyone from film students and weekend warrior filmmakers to professionals who are not working on big budget projects. The F is a great entry level to pro gear and it's also a great for folks who don't need the tank proof construction and can deal with a few less features for a whole lot less money. The F4 might get to the $500 point but lower than that and I think Zoom doesn't make enough money on them.
I don't see it getting lower because I don't see the prices of XLR connectors and such getting a whole lot cheaper.
Curtis Judd published a comparison of analog vs digital limiters, which was not very conclusive for me. The analog limiters seemed to do a better job but I was still hearing distortion in his analog recordings. So as you say the difference may not be as big as people are making it out to be. ( I was expecting to hear hard clipping with the Zoom F8 recording )
scorsesefan
Veteran
I always thought that if SD offered an even $1200-$1400 recorder (the 702-B?) with a stripped down feature set they would do real well...
graywolf
Well-known member
Rather than quoting Noiz's post I will just mention that is the one I am responding to.
Scott, you are undoubtedly correct. After all, Zoom's F4 ad video "Indie becomes Hollywood" (or something like that) squarely targets low budget film makers.
I do think that Zoom has moved solidly into the low end professional market, rather than the semi-professional market, with the F series recorders. I guess the best advertisement Zoom can have is all those ober-professionals comparing the F8 and F4 to recorders five times their price. It actually indicates that they are scared their ober-expensive gear is going to suddenly become obsolete.
If I was going to film a trek through the Hymalaians I would not be taking the Zoom as my primary recorder. But around my small town?
Scott, you are undoubtedly correct. After all, Zoom's F4 ad video "Indie becomes Hollywood" (or something like that) squarely targets low budget film makers.
I do think that Zoom has moved solidly into the low end professional market, rather than the semi-professional market, with the F series recorders. I guess the best advertisement Zoom can have is all those ober-professionals comparing the F8 and F4 to recorders five times their price. It actually indicates that they are scared their ober-expensive gear is going to suddenly become obsolete.
If I was going to film a trek through the Hymalaians I would not be taking the Zoom as my primary recorder. But around my small town?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
WE agree except that none of them are worried about their equipment being "obsolete", or if they do it has nothing to do with Zoom. The F series doesn't bring anything new to the table except lower cost so they are not going to make anything obsolete.
If you are making real money as a professional mixer you are not likely to bring a Zoom. Not because it's not "the hot thing" or expensive enough or even because the quality is so far below par (it isn't). You are not going to bring it because it hasn't been field tested long enough and you are being paid to be 100%, 100% of the time. Right now the F series doesn't have enough of a track record for a professional to run the risk on a big job. Folks are interested because they are always looking for new/ better tools. I can see top mixers having one around as a plant recorder or like a gig I did where they suddenly needed a second system that they hadn't thought of. It's really nice to be able to say I can cover that. Just a little bit of job security. I don't see them using it as the primary recorder anytime soon.
That does not mean it isn't good enough just that big shows are very bleeding edge averse. Now I expect FX recordists to be eating these things up. They have the flexibility and they tend to really like the bleeding edge. SD when they came out were gobbled up by FX recordists and it wasn't till after they had battle tested it for a couple of years that SD recorders started to be used on some shows. Heck FX recordists were big fans of the 4H (first decent sounding handheld) and used to keep them stashed in glove boxes for grabbing found sounds.
A big show is still more likely to use something like a DEVA or even Boom Recorder because of features, but SD is solidly in lower budget (Hollywood lower budget) shows and video. Especially with newer folks who didn't already have a $$$$ recorder. I doubt anybody suddenly tossed their DEVA for a SD recorder, especially if they were doing cart work.
Now a couple of years down the road, assuming Zoom keeps with the F series or similar, and nothing shows up as a huge problem, I think you will see more of them in bigger shows that are less risk averse.
If you are making real money as a professional mixer you are not likely to bring a Zoom. Not because it's not "the hot thing" or expensive enough or even because the quality is so far below par (it isn't). You are not going to bring it because it hasn't been field tested long enough and you are being paid to be 100%, 100% of the time. Right now the F series doesn't have enough of a track record for a professional to run the risk on a big job. Folks are interested because they are always looking for new/ better tools. I can see top mixers having one around as a plant recorder or like a gig I did where they suddenly needed a second system that they hadn't thought of. It's really nice to be able to say I can cover that. Just a little bit of job security. I don't see them using it as the primary recorder anytime soon.
That does not mean it isn't good enough just that big shows are very bleeding edge averse. Now I expect FX recordists to be eating these things up. They have the flexibility and they tend to really like the bleeding edge. SD when they came out were gobbled up by FX recordists and it wasn't till after they had battle tested it for a couple of years that SD recorders started to be used on some shows. Heck FX recordists were big fans of the 4H (first decent sounding handheld) and used to keep them stashed in glove boxes for grabbing found sounds.
A big show is still more likely to use something like a DEVA or even Boom Recorder because of features, but SD is solidly in lower budget (Hollywood lower budget) shows and video. Especially with newer folks who didn't already have a $$$$ recorder. I doubt anybody suddenly tossed their DEVA for a SD recorder, especially if they were doing cart work.
Now a couple of years down the road, assuming Zoom keeps with the F series or similar, and nothing shows up as a huge problem, I think you will see more of them in bigger shows that are less risk averse.
graywolf
Well-known member
My bad. I used the term "obsolete" in the sense it would knock down the resale value of the more expensive equipment. But I guess that is actually a slang usage. It is so hard to be clear on the internet...
There was a time I wanted a Nagra tape recorder, and then a time I wanted a Sound Designs 702, and then the F4 came along and I thought "Wow, I can almost afford that". Then I thought, "At this rate, by the time one comes out that I can afford, I will be dead". Then the F4 actually hit the market a few days before my birthday. Most expensive toy I have bought in the past 20 years, if you don't count the convertible.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I have a NAGRA, want to trade?... ;~)
I'm pretty sure it's "new" price was a lot more than the F4. It only weighs 15 lbs or so, before you put the 12 D cels in.
The really cool part is you get ~15 minutes on a 7" reel and maybe a day on the dozen D cels, and it's mono. I'll even toss in a pancake or two of 1/4" tape and the Anvil case.
I'm pretty sure it's "new" price was a lot more than the F4. It only weighs 15 lbs or so, before you put the 12 D cels in.
The really cool part is you get ~15 minutes on a 7" reel and maybe a day on the dozen D cels, and it's mono. I'll even toss in a pancake or two of 1/4" tape and the Anvil case.
Jim Feeley
Veteran
For what it's worth, I just last week bought a backup audio recorder. I spent $1600 for a used Sound Devices 744T (along with a CL-1 keyboard/remote interface, and some good accessories). I decided that was a better fit for my needs than a new Zoom F4 or F8 even though those are less expensive and seemingly pretty good. Proven sonic excellence, great metering, strong reliability, etc. Plus, I have a couple small-ensemble music recording jobs coming up. Today, a 744T won't be the right choice for everyone, but it is for me.
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graywolf
Well-known member
I seem to remember they were about $4000. What I eventually wound up with, many years later, was a Superscope CD-330 3-head Stereo Cassette Recorder, which is sitting on the top of the bookcase over in the corner. The F4 replaces it now.
Nope, I don't want to trade.