Zoom F4 discontinued

[puredrifting]

It's so brilliant it has production mixers on the JW forum have contimplated their future. Consider if the next version of the Deity BP-TRX has 5G mobile in it and wirelessly and autonomously sends the 32 bit files to the clients editing server and the camera does the same with metadata such that they are all matched and synced and set up for editing autonomously. Suppose the editing system automatically normalizes all the sound files and does a first grading of all video clips based upon the clients pre-production input. The editor could start editing the commercial while your still on the set and send back the rough cut for approval. What if AI learned the editor's style, could scan the clips, and make progressively better rough cuts in real time that the client could view in the video village as each take was completed?

In other words, whatever we have now may be good enough now. But not for long.

Maybe that's why I don't see any of them wanting it in their recorders? ;-)

 

[NorBro]

IMO, there is really no good reason for all humans to eventually be using 32-bit float, especially because of its price and any future hardware with better offerings.

Right this second, I understand many can wait a few more months (maybe years) and use what they have, but for the regular day-in, day-out "I never need more than 2-3 inputs at once" and nothing else guys and gals, reward yourself with the F6 or something else as soon as possible.

 

[Paul F]

Maybe that's why I don't see any of them wanting it in their recorders? ;-)

For sure. People are pooping in their pants at the latest advancements. Just how small can a crew get? As we have said in the past, if you're not making plans, you're planning your own demise.

 

[puredrifting]

For sure. People are pooping in their pants at the latest advancements. Just how small can a crew get? As we have said in the past, if you're not making plans, you're planning your own demise.

True. I was thinking about your post though. I am transitioning heavily into remote live streaming. We already have PTZ cameras that we can control from our live streaming software, we can now even keyframe moves on
multiple axis, zoom and focus. For multi camera live streams, we often now only have one camera op manning 2-3 cameras and with the PTZ cameras, for those jobs that are happy with the uncinematic look of the PTZ cameras,
they can be accomplished with no camera ops, just me or my partner TDing and adjusting the framing or programming key frames. These are for live events and you still need a camera op for many things,
but the number of things that you don't need a camera op for is growing.

We all agree that producers will ruthlessly eliminate any and all crew positions possible, especially now with the added expense of production and every crew member in the age of the Pandemic.
Even if you can eliminate the necessity of a sound mixer on set actually riding and setting levels, you still have mic selection, mic placement, problem solving, dealing with wireless interference between the
camera department's Teradeks and the sound department's Lectros, Comtek and IfB management, so many other little details that sound mixers are needed for on set.

For certain types of production, namely event and documentary production, the sound mixer position is already often cut by producers, that's why you have camera ops debating the relative merits of 32-bit FPA.
For narrative and higher end production though, I think producers will find that they cannot yet eliminate sound mixers, just as they cannot yet eliminate camera ops. But you know that producers would love to.
Not necessarily the DP but positions like camera ops and ACs will be on the chopping block eventually.

This will sound hyperbolic but have you seen the YouTube video tests of the latest Boston Dynamics stand alone robots, what they are capable of today? How long until a bipedal robot will be able to hold, point, frame, focus a camera, either autonomously or with someone at the controls remotely?
It sounds crazy but it's definitely coming and there will be a point when a good portion of film and video production can be performed by various pedastal mount, drone and bipedal robots. Not saying these will be for creative, narrative filmmaking so much
but we all know that a lot of the tasks we do in production could be performed quicker and more efficiently. A lot of what we do isn't creative per se, it's mechanical and repeatability and adaptability are really valued, two areas where robots are either at parity with humans or have surpassed humans.
it sounds fantastic but we know it's coming, it's just a matter of how long it will take to come into popular use.

 

[puredrifting]

IMO, there is really no good reason for all humans to eventually be using 32-bit float, especially because of its price and any future hardware with better offerings.

Right this second, I understand many can wait a few more months (maybe years) and use what they have, but for the regular day-in, day-out "I never need more than 2-3 inputs at once" and nothing else guys and gals, reward yourself with the F6 or something else as soon as possible.

It'll be really interesting to see if Sound Devices puts it on their next higher end mixer/recorder. They have introduced two new high-end mixer recorders since the intro of 32-bit on the Mix Pre series II
and neither had it. Could be a "wait and see" approach to see what consumer reaction is to it on the Mix Pres? It looks as if Zoom will probably put it into everything. Have not heard a word from Zaxcom
on 32-bit FPA recording either, although the Nova and Nomad both highlight "32-bit DSP". The audio world definitely evolves at a more deliberate pace than the camera and lighting worlds.

 

[JAMedia]

It'll be really interesting to see if Sound Devices puts it on their next higher end mixer/recorder. They have introduced two new high-end mixer recorders since the intro of 32-bit on the Mix Pre series II
and neither had it. Could be a "wait and see" approach to see what consumer reaction is to it on the Mix Pres? It looks as if Zoom will probably put it into everything. Have not heard a word from Zaxcom
on 32-bit FPA recording either, although the Nova and Nomad both highlight "32-bit DSP". The audio world definitely evolves at a more deliberate pace than the camera and lighting worlds.

Is it possible that experienced pros don't need 32FPA because they know how to adjust audio and that is the target market for Sound Devices. Whereas the less expensive Zoom kit is aimed at a less professional market that needs all the help it can get?
Just a thought.

 

[NielsN]

How long until a bipedal robot will be able to hold, point, frame, focus a camera, either autonomously or with someone at the controls remotely?

No need for a bipedal robot. I make a hand gesture to my DJI OSMO mobile 3 gimbal w iPhone app and it follows me around - totally scary.

 

[David W. Jones]

Is it possible that experienced pros don't need 32FPA because they know how to adjust audio and that is the target market for Sound Devices. Whereas the less expensive Zoom kit is aimed at a less professional market that needs all the help it can get?
Just a thought.

Well Sound Devices has products that compete with Zoom at that level as well.

But let's face it, the high end of a profession is a real minority, whether it is a sound mixer, or a director of photography.
There is a much larger market of potential sales dollars available to these companies below the high end. That is where these products fit in.

 

[JAMedia]

Well Sound Devices has products that compete with Zoom at that level as well.

But let's face it, the high end of a profession is a real minority, whether it is a sound mixer, or a director of photography.
There is a much larger market of potential sales dollars available to these companies below the high end. That is where these products fit in.

Yes I agree completely. There is an interesting similar state of flux on the Black Magic Design Forum. Since BMD has released the ATEM Mini a Sub $400 ATEM unit with features normally found in their >$1000 ATEM units the forum has been flooded with 100's (thousands?) of users of these new low cost units who are also very new to ATEMs and he language of Broadcast. The market for these low cost ATEMS is far bigger than the traditional Broadcast market. "Everyone on YouTube is a TV station now" and there are far more of them that traditional TV stations.

It is the same with the audio systems. The 23 bit systems will enable the entry level people to use technology rather than hard learnt skills to improve their audio and they are a far bigger market.

 

[JAMedia]

How long until a bipedal robot will be able to hold, point, frame, focus a camera, either autonomously or with someone at the controls remotely?

Does not need to be a bipedal robot. as you said "with someone at the controls remotely" some one posted that

We already have PTZ cameras that we can control from our live streaming software, we can now even keyframe moves on
multiple axis, zoom and focus.

If you look at the start of the main BBC evening news the establishing shot of the studio shows 6+ cameras on pedestals on rails that are fully automated. There are no cameramen in the studio.* This was happening last year long before COVID.
So you don't need to wait for biped robots. I would expect that many studio based TV shows will not need as many cameramen as they did.

EDIT * There are no cameramen standing at cameras & operating them on the studio floor.

 

[puredrifting]

Is it possible that experienced pros don't need 32FPA because they know how to adjust audio and that is the target market for Sound Devices. Whereas the less expensive Zoom kit is aimed at a less professional market that needs all the help it can get?
Just a thought.

I think's at least a semi accurate assessment of the market.

 

[puredrifting]

Does not need to be a bipedal robot. as you said "with someone at the controls remotely" some one posted that



If you look at the start of the main BBC evening news the establishing shot of the studio shows 6+ cameras on pedestals on rails that are fully automated. There are no cameramen in the studio.* This was happening last year long before COVID.
So you don't need to wait for biped robots. I would expect that many studio based TV shows will not need as many cameramen as they did.

EDIT * There are no cameramen standing at cameras & operating them on the studio floor.

Yes, that technology has been in news studios for ages in various forms. I'm talking location shooting, documentary, event and narrative in real locations where you literally could bring a bipedal robot with an integral camera system, and give it an assignment
like "Go shoot b-roll of those buildings" That's where big, heavy pedestals won't be practical. But a smaller, lighter bipedal robot with advanced Ai could be pretty handy. Or if they can keep evolving drone tech to eliminate prop noise, there you go, that would be
incredibly handy as well for a lot of production, small, noiseless, Ai powered intelligent drones.

 

[JAMedia]

Yes, that technology has been in news studios for ages in various forms. I'm talking location shooting, documentary, event and narrative in real locations where you literally could bring a bipedal robot with an integral camera system, and give it an assignment
like "Go shoot b-roll of those buildings" That's where big, heavy pedestals won't be practical. But a smaller, lighter bipedal robot with advanced Ai could be pretty handy. Or if they can keep evolving drone tech to eliminate prop noise, there you go, that would be
incredibly handy as well for a lot of production, small, noiseless, Ai powered intelligent drones.

That will be drones. It is far easier to do that than a biped robot. Besides robots will more likely be tracked or wheeled.
There is no need at all to have a humanoid shaped robot and lots of reasons not to.

 

[Noiz2]

I did not say it wasn't great technology. I said it wasn't a necessity, sort of like 8k. If you capture the audio vaguely decently one will not be able to tell the difference between 24bit and 32bit float for most applications. Sure it has its advantages. If it allows for one to purchase a 24bit unit at a low price then that is an advantage as well If not, then I might get the F6 someday.

What you are missing is that it's not the 32 that is important it's the float. It means that after you get past the preamp it is essentially impossible to clip AND a quiet recording does not loose resolution so it can be boosted in post with much fewer issues. Those two features are what will make it very attractive to professionals.
8K is I guess useful if you want to reframe in post, though I think that is probably more of a video world thing. Raw footage is closer to the advantages of 32float because both allow you to alter things as if they had been altered in production. The advantages are actually somewhat enhanced by "knowing how to set levels". It will also be a big seller for non sound people and probably sold with the somewhat false advertising of "just point and go and you will sound like a pro!". The old programing adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" still applies. But atleast they probably won't be clipped out and raising the on their insanely low tracks level will have somewhat better results.

 

[puredrifting]

What you are missing is that it's not the 32 that is important it's the float. It means that after you get past the preamp it is essentially impossible to clip AND a quiet recording does not loose resolution so it can be boosted in post with much fewer issues. Those two features are what will make it very attractive to professionals.
8K is I guess useful if you want to reframe in post, though I think that is probably more of a video world thing. Raw footage is closer to the advantages of 32float because both allow you to alter things as if they had been altered in production. The advantages are actually somewhat enhanced by "knowing how to set levels". It will also be a big seller for non sound people and probably sold with the somewhat false advertising of "just point and go and you will sound like a pro!". The old programing adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" still applies. But atleast they probably won't be clipped out and raising the on their insanely low tracks level will have somewhat better results.

Can you imagine how much incredible dynamic range overloaded mic capsule audio will result? When do we get 32-bit digital microphones is the question? ;-)

 

[Guest]

What you are missing is that it's not the 32 that is important it's the float. It means that after you get past the preamp it is essentially impossible to clip AND a quiet recording does not loose resolution so it can be boosted in post with much fewer issues. Those two features are what will make it very attractive to professionals.
8K is I guess useful if you want to reframe in post, though I think that is probably more of a video world thing. Raw footage is closer to the advantages of 32float because both allow you to alter things as if they had been altered in production. The advantages are actually somewhat enhanced by "knowing how to set levels". It will also be a big seller for non sound people and probably sold with the somewhat false advertising of "just point and go and you will sound like a pro!". The old programing adage of "Garbage in, garbage out" still applies. But atleast they probably won't be clipped out and raising the on their insanely low tracks level will have somewhat better results.

^this

 

[IronFilm]

Was on B&H's site and just noticed Zoom has dumped the F4 so if you are interested in one you might be able to get a great deal if anyone has any stock left.

Sadly I've never seen the crazy deal of US$350 for a new one repeated that they had a while back.

Very disappointed there is going to be no Zoom F4n! :-/ :-( As the Zoom F6 simply isn't the same thing!

The Zoom F4 was quite frankly the best starter field recorder for anybody starting out who couldn't stretch to the likes of a Zoom F8n or even an 833 etc

 

[IronFilm]

The F6 was its demise. 32 bit float will be the end for all of them as new models come out. I already feel like my F8 is ancient.

The Zoom F8n is still the very best recorder that Zoom makes.

And the Zoom F8 is extremely extremely similar to the F8n! (the only "big" differences being: pro line level out, not consumer line level. And the XLR can be set to mic or line, you don't have to resort using the 1/4" input)

 

[IronFilm]

I agree with you re the Zoom F4 and the Mix Pre. For serious sound tech's the Mix Pre's have the edge. However for many people the F series are very good value for money and will do all that is needed. I have an F4 with the add on 2 port extender which gives me a total of 6 ports on a field recorder. I could not at the time justify the additional cost of a MixPre-6 (which is now also a legacy product!) )

I strongly disagree, if someone has a serious interest in the Sound Department then the MixPres do not have the edge.

Would recommend the Zoom F4 over the MixPre3/6 Gen1 (which was the F4's competition back in the day) any day of the week to an aspiring Production Sound Mixer. The Zoom F4 was clearly leaps and bounds ahead of the MP3/6mk1 when it comes to features & I/O! Sound Devices wasn't even close. Even though the MP3/6 was priced higher!

The MixPre10 is quite a different beast to the MixPre3/6, as the MP10 has a foot inching into the "pro" territory. But also it is a radically more expensive, even significantly more expensive than the Zoom F8/F8n.

The MixPre3/6 Gen2 is a further improvement/refinement (especially with all their firmware updates), and have helped close the gap vs the lead the Zoom F Series has.

But still, the MixPre3/6 are better suited to videographers (i.e. people who put camera first, not sound and just want the smallest package to mount under their new mirrorless a7/GH6/Z5/X-T5/whatever), or for sound recordists as a secondary supplementary recorder. (for instance, I've got an 833 but also a MixPre3 as well)

 

[IronFilm]

I agree with you technologically, it impresses the heck out of me. But my Mix Pre doesn't have it (v1). The sound mixers I hire are still using their 633s, Zaxcoms and Scorpios without it.
Sound Pros seem to have given a collective yawn to it though, spend some time over at the JW Sound Forums and see how many pros are whinging that their recorders don't have 32-bit.
I have not seen a single one in six months and if you are delivering to a post sound department, most don't even know 32-bit FPA exists and don't have the time to deal with it.

I kept on reading "32bit FPA" in your post each time you said it instead as "32bit FPGA" :grin:
The Sound Devices Scorpio / 888 / 833 (which is what I have!) actually has a 64bit FPGA inside them!

It'll be really interesting to see if Sound Devices puts it on their next higher end mixer/recorder. They have introduced two new high-end mixer recorders since the intro of 32-bit on the Mix Pre series II
and neither had it.

The 833 only came out a couple of weeks after the MixPre Gen2, and the 888 was the month after the 833.

That was extremely rapid succession! So you can't read too much into the 833/888 not have the 32bit that the MixPre Gen2 have.

Especially as the buyers of an 833/888 would rate the importance of 32bit very low! I could easily come up with a list of dozen features I'd like to see in a firmware update for my 833 before I'd need to mention 32bit. Thus it is best Sound Devices puts their focus elsewhere for now, perhaps in a year or two once their To Do List has grown shorter they could add 32bit. (and Sound Devices has hinted "maybe in the future")

Is it possible that experienced pros don't need 32FPA because they know how to adjust audio and that is the target market for Sound Devices. Whereas the less expensive Zoom kit is aimed at a less professional market that needs all the help it can get?
Just a thought.

24bit is already extremely good.

Back in the day when people recorded in 16bit (!!!), then yes, even professionals had to be on their toes to make sure they nailed the levels in terms of getting it in that sweet spot between peaking and the noise floor level underneath.

But now with 24bit you've got so much latitude, you've got to be really incompetent to screw it up badly.

Thus there isn't really a true need to go for 32bit as the "next level up".

Remember too, that most professionals have either 100% of their tracks being wireless or close to it. And absolutely NONE of us are using 32bit wireless. Truly is utterly and totally pointless to record in 32bit if your wireless isn't even capable of that in the first place.

This like people who output a 1080 8bit 420 image into a 4K 12bit 444 recorder, what a waste of time and bytes! (assuming the 1080 file already was a decent data rate)