Zacuto Camera Shootout 2018 : Panasonic EVA1 vs Canon C200

[AndreeOnline]

I participated in every step of this test, from shooting to color grade to today's Facebook Live discussion. Anyone have any questions?

Hi Mitch,

1. Were the cameras set to identical exposure values, or where the cameras exposed according to the manufactureres recommendation for 18% gray and Log curve? They might end up at the same EV automatically, but not necessarily.
2. When shooting, did you work off a fixed, common white balance (preset/manual) or did you Auto WB against a target? Was WB identical between cameras?
3. Images labelled with LUT: are they straight up each manufactuers Log to Rec.709? Any exposure adjustments in post at this stage?
4. Was there a method to the grading, such as making sure that different areas of the image landed in the same IRE region between the cameras and that a common blackpoint was decided upon?

I found the straight up Log images the most useful. To me, the 'grades' seemed pretty arbitrary with some blacks pretty crushed while others were more relaxed.

 

[legrevedotcom]

Will there be another test video with sound? I didn't see the live feed if there was one. The trailer clearly gave the impression that the test would be making conclusions, ie. "this camera is great here... that one sucks there".

If not... they just need the good old "so... that's what it was... what do YOU think... let us know in the comments", at the end of the video.

Put your head on the f'ing plate instead of sucking up to every manufacturer because you are affraid that they wont keeping you gear to test if you smack their product for being half assed, which is often the case with mid range Canon cameras.

 

[IronFilm]

The last effort made for a pathetic showing by the community, including leaders of the community to jump on him. Everyone was so pleased with his shootout of several cameras before the cameras were identified. After the cameras were identified, people turned into animals. It was shameful.

I guess people were too embarrassed that a Panasonic GH2 "won".

 

[IronFilm]

"we'll need plenty of zacuto accessories to unleash each camera's potential"

Ha! Just a bit O' product placement..

They have to fund the shootouts somehow! I don't mind at all if they do a bit of product placement.

The old Zacuto shootouts were really, really good. I look forward to this (though I would have liked to see an FS7 thrown in there as well, and of course an Alexa because, well, we need a benchmark).

100% agree.

If they'd done 3 cameras, then the 3rd should be the industry standard for the low/mid range: Sony FS7

And ditto if they'd expanded out to 4, add in the Arri Alexa because it is the "gold standard".

 

[IronFilm]

While watching the full 25 minute test, I kept wishing they had thrown the GH5s into the mix...

A 5th camera pick for me for sure would be the GH5S as the "best" of the next tier down.

No doubt ego etc amplifies the issue of gear buy-in/protection, but for many DPs at the more common non-Hollywood, industrial levels, owning a specific camera is important to luring clients.
So..there becomes a dual level of "investment" at play.

Interesting if that a Canon rep suggested need for an encoding upgrade. They should also offer timecode i/o...if only as an add-on module s la FS7

As a soundie I'm 110% agreed about getting a TC I/O add on!

The Canon rep actually said we should make noise about the C200 getting a 10 bit 422 codec because "it should have it". Wow...

Wow, surprisingly honest for a Canon rep!

 

[brettsherman]

I agree with Andree, this interior scene and most of the exteriors are poorly lit. They should have actually set up scenes that make each camera shine, rather than try to just show noise in darks or how bad each camera can look. If I knew nothing about these cameras and viewed these shots, I would look elsewhere for a camera, both cameras look amazingly bad since almost all of the scenes are severaly underlit. What a disappointment. I also agree that a talented gaffer and or DP can make each of these cameras punch way above their weight class. So far, in general, I see few differences between the images from both cameras overall. There are subtle differences but both can look as good or bad as the DP will allow them to.

For my purposes I want it to be as poorly lit as possible. :laugh: Really what I'm saying is I shoot in real-world situations where I have little to no control over the lighting and light levels. What I want is a camera that renders the best image in as many imperfect shooting situations as possible. Which camera works best in a mixture of fluorescent and daylight? I want to know where noise becomes problematic. And I'll also say at this point I think it boils down to feature sets between the EVA1 and C200. I'm sure I'd be happy with the image from either. But the AF and viewfinder on the C200 is what would make me never want to trade it in for and EVA1. I just don't think the end product would be radically different whether it was shot on an EVA1 or C200.

 

[puredrifting]

For my purposes I want it to be as poorly lit as possible. :laugh: Really what I'm saying is I shoot in real-world situations where I have little to no control over the lighting and light levels. What I want is a camera that renders the best image in as many imperfect shooting situations as possible. Which camera works best in a mixture of fluorescent and daylight? I want to know where noise becomes problematic. And I'll also say at this point I think it boils down to feature sets between the EVA1 and C200. I'm sure I'd be happy with the image from either. But the AF and viewfinder on the C200 is what would make me never want to trade it in for and EVA1. I just don't think the end product would be radically different whether it was shot on an EVA1 or C200.

Agreed on all counts Brett, I just want both though, a beautifully lit, properly exposed scene and a crappy, available light scenario. I didn't see any images from either camera that impressed me and I know that both are capable of great, beautiful images. I too shoot documentaries in available light and I get it about shooting far less than optimal lighting situations but I still get to light about 20-30% of my scenes and perhaps 10% I get a crew, grip/gaffer and I am expected to make it look as good as possible.

I too agree about the feature sets and for me personally, it's about the value equation. It's simple, to make the C200 shootable for me, it was take it out of the box, add battery and card and start shooting CRL for about $8,500.00, whereas the EVA 1 would be take it out of the box, affix Zacuto mount, hardware, Gratical, buy V60 or V90 cards that actually cost more than my Egodisk Cfast cards for the C200 and I would be in at about $11k to make it shootable for me. And I would probably still miss focus on a lot of shots when I couldn't orient the camera to use the Gratical. I think they're both great cameras, but IMHO, Panasonic should have included a functional, usable EVF, even if it's at the rear of the camera like the C200.

 

[morgan_moore]

Is there a link to commentary/chat

I only found 25 mins of footage

One cannot grade without a commentary- it is impossible as the colourist must describe what they are trying to do.

Also one cannot test a camera without significant bracketing.

 

[Tamerlin]

I didn't see any images from either camera that impressed me and I know that both are capable of great, beautiful images.

That's what lead me to stop paying attention to these shootouts. Too few actually showed what the cameras in question could really do, because they were using such generic, drab lighting and scenes to compare them.

The last straw for me was when I shot some stuff with an AJA Cion and everyone who saw the footage loved it, and the review images were dreadful -- usually due to bad lighting, though in reality the Cion's biggest down side is that it wasn't at all forgiving; it really didn't do well UNLESS the lighting was pretty good. Horses for courses; it's actually a great camera for things like conferences and interviews, but you wouldn't know it from the reviews.

I've seen some films made using both of the cameras being compared here that looked great, so for me it really would come down to features and ergonomics if I were buying one right now.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Does anybody really pay attention to this stuff anymore? We long ago reached the point where if you can't create images with the cameras out there then the camera itself is likely no longer the main problem.

99% of the viewing public just cannot see the fine details some of us claim make or break a camera. I'm not talking about a T3i with horribly aliased wannabe 1080p video but once you reach a certain class of camera these shootouts are for the most part 100% worthless and just become a loud pointless talking point for nerds and free publicity for Zacuto or whoever else decides to sensationalize themselves and attempt to look valid or important with such "tests".

 

[Tamerlin]

Yep. These are mostly marketing ploys, and it's usually a matter of trying to convince potential clients to hire them because they own Camera X which is better than Camera Y that their competitor uses... which is of course bogus, since a smart client will choose a production company or cinematographer based on talent and rent a camera package that suits their needs.

 

[yoclay]

Yep. These are mostly marketing ploys, and it's usually a matter of trying to convince potential clients to hire them because they own Camera X which is better than Camera Y that their competitor uses... which is of course bogus, since a smart client will choose a production company or cinematographer based on talent and rent a camera package that suits their needs.

Don't agree. I think there is a large group of folks in this budget range who are really debating which of these two cameras is right for them.
I think the discussion surrounding both of them was vailid and intelligent.
Frankly, I also felt that all the participants were mature enough to recognize that you don't have to slag off the other in order to bring to light the strengths and qualities of your own product.
I would like to see more cooperation between players in this market rather than less surrounding these kind of choices and comparisons.

Further, unlike many folks here, I actually preferred the Canon footage, which I find to be less mushy, slightly sharper, less prone to chroma noise and artifacts and not oversaturated when corrected as the EVA1 was.

Look at the detail in the wooden ceiling lampshade and seatback of the chair in this shot. The Canon does a far better job. This was a screengrab from the 4K version that Zacuto putup on Youtube. Look at the lack of color seperation in the imac on the EVA1 too. Again it's that cyan dominance at the expense of nuance, meanwhile the yellow of the ceiling shade is already saturating. Whatever the resolution pipeline of youtube, since these two shots were made at the same time, same focus, etc...it clearly shows what I am talking about. Even if this is a shot with a LUT applied from both manufacturer's, that should not affect sharpness in this manner. It remains to be seen if this is merely an issue between RAW and a compression scheme. (Personally I don't think it is). One thing is for sure though Panasonic had better get RAW into this camera soon, because right now, the Canon looks clearly sharper and I don't think ALL-I (which is coming) is going to change this.

 

[Tamerlin]

Don't agree. I think there is a large group of folks in this budget range who are really debating which of these two cameras is right for them.

I'm quite sure that there is a large group of people debating between these cameras, but that doesn't make the average shootout any good. Most of them aren't.

I think the discussion surrounding both of them was vailid and intelligent.
Frankly, I also felt that all the participants were mature enough to recognize that you don't have to slag off the other in order to bring to light the strengths and qualities of your own product.

Both of those are unusual characteristics of shootouts, and sets this one apart from the norm. It's good that at least

I would like to see more cooperation between players in this market rather than less surrounding these kind of choices and comparisons.

I agree with that sentiment. It's even more frustrating on the post side than on the camera side, since at least in the camera world we have a few de-facto standards like the Arri rosettes and Arca-Swiss plates and so on. In post it's more of a bear with things like interchange problems, and the whole challenge with moving massive amounts of footage around over the interwait.

 

[dcoughla]

Coming into this shootout I preferred EVA1 footage to C200 in virtually everything I saw before this test, including another head to head that I also thought was reasonably well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQaK9rz4a_E

Also felt the C200 looked "better" in the Zacuto comparison. If you're looking to purchase in the segment I think they both deserve to be rented and tried first as it's workflow and not image that truly separates the two at this point.

 

[Run&Gun]

... a matter of trying to convince potential clients to hire them because they own Camera X which is better than Camera Y that their competitor uses... which is of course bogus, since a smart client will choose a production company or cinematographer based on talent and rent a camera package that suits their needs.

Depends on what market segment you're talking about(Features, corporate, broadcast, etc.). Big budget national ads, no. The camera you own doesn't mean anything, because it's probably gonna be rented for the production. Mid-tier, yes, it can most certainly make a difference of you getting a call or not. Now whether you get a second call from them can soley depend on your talent. I've gotten a lot of calls just because of equipment that I own that has opened up doors for me. Even within the ecosystem of existing clients.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hi Mitch,

1. Were the cameras set to identical exposure values, or where the cameras exposed according to the manufactureres recommendation for 18% gray and Log curve? They might end up at the same EV automatically, but not necessarily.
2. When shooting, did you work off a fixed, common white balance (preset/manual) or did you Auto WB against a target? Was WB identical between cameras?
3. Images labelled with LUT: are they straight up each manufactuers Log to Rec.709? Any exposure adjustments in post at this stage?
4. Was there a method to the grading, such as making sure that different areas of the image landed in the same IRE region between the cameras and that a common blackpoint was decided upon?

I found the straight up Log images the most useful. To me, the 'grades' seemed pretty arbitrary with some blacks pretty crushed while others were more relaxed.

Did you watch the discussion? All of this was discussed, and I even specifically addressed some stating that I knew the internet forums would go crazy.

The cameras were exposed based on the manufacturer's Rec709 LUTs. When 18% middle gray was used, it was quickly apparent that the different curves and DR performance of the cameras made the exposures wildly different. When the Rec709 LUTs were used as the reference guide then exposures were extremely close.

Fixed preset white balances.

"LUT" means the manufacturers' LUTs. Downloaded from each of our websites. Just laid them on.

The grading method was to get to what Bruce wanted out of the image. He started with the Canon RAW and then graded the others, but sometimes there was a little back & forth. It wasn't to make the cameras look better or worse but instead to just get to the look he wanted from the scene.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Will there be another test video with sound? I didn't see the live feed if there was one. The trailer clearly gave the impression that the test would be making conclusions, ie. "this camera is great here... that one sucks there".

If not... they just need the good old "so... that's what it was... what do YOU think... let us know in the comments", at the end of the video.

Put your head on the f'ing plate instead of sucking up to every manufacturer because you are affraid that they wont keeping you gear to test if you smack their product for being half assed, which is often the case with mid range Canon cameras.

This is it. Professionals should know how to look at the footage themselves and draw conclusions instead of having it spooned to them.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I guess people were too embarrassed that a Panasonic GH2 "won".

Oh, you mean the camera that required a huge amount of adjustment to the lighting and tons of power windows in post? The one that Francis Coppola liked but a lot of others didn't? The one that didn't have the depth of field characteristics of Super-35 (neither did the iPhone!!)? Of course there was another camera on that same test where the operator walked into the base lighting setup and said, "yeah, our camera can handle that." That camera shot the scene in about 1/10th the time and the grade was super fast as well. So even though it was the most expensive camera on the stage that day it was easily the most affordable given the minimal lighting requirements, the minimal lighting time (zero!) and the short time spent in color correction. But yeah, that little GH2 looked nice when you worked it well.

Tools matter. If you want to cut off your nose in spite of your face then that's fine, but don't fool yourself into believing you're doing yourself any favors in the process.

 

[Mitch Gross]

They have to fund the shootouts somehow! I don't mind at all if they do a bit of product placement.



100% agree.

If they'd done 3 cameras, then the 3rd should be the industry standard for the low/mid range: Sony FS7

And ditto if they'd expanded out to 4, add in the Arri Alexa because it is the "gold standard".

Where was the product placement? The cameras didn't have any Zacuto accessories on them, short of the custom plate and custom dual-lens follow focus rig used to shoot the two cameras together and pull focus on both lenses simultaneously. There was only one mention of Zacuto accessorizing in the Facebook Live show, and it was a joke by me. Knowing what goes into this thing I really feel Zacuto gets an unfair turn. You would be amazed at how expensive this was to put together and there were no parameters put on anything by anyone. Zacuto honestly didn't care what Bruce did as long as it was informative and entertaining. The manufacturers didn't care as long as it was done fairly. Canon & Panasonic stood back and observed, plus occasionally showed the AC where to find an adjustment in the menu.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Is there a link to commentary/chat

I only found 25 mins of footage

One cannot grade without a commentary- it is impossible as the colourist must describe what they are trying to do.

Also one cannot test a camera without significant bracketing.

There is a 78 minute program with lots of commentary. And there was significant bracketing done on all of the tests.