FAQ XVAC480 for F5 and F55 - any chance for FS7?

Nirv said:
The F5 started out life as a bit of an expensive misfit and has been upgraded to a very close second.
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Such a shame - when I tested it to buy - I could just not fork that much money on a 1080 camera - Sony should have been open with the capabilities from the get go.

I would probably prefer an F5 now, and Sony would have preferred getting twice the cash from me :)
 
I wonder if they would have given the F5 internal 4K without the hack..esp after release of the cheaper Fs7 with 4K off the same sensor.. who was going to buy an F5 ?..but having already categorically stated it could never do it.. they would have had make everyone send them into the shop to cover it up.. in alot of ways the hack actually saved their arse re F5 sales.. for a 1080 camera who,s place in the world was looking very fragile.. its now a big winner again..
 
Donny 123 said:
I wonder if there will be a sort of combined Fs7/F5.. there doesn't really seem a need to have both.. the Fs8 with side LCD.. F5 EVF options or similar .. more robust build.. maybe dreaming ! but either changeable or buyer option lens mount.. 16 bit RAW.. 480 XAVC etc.. but not global shutter.. that would still be for the higher end F55.. priced between the fs7 (which is too cheap) and the F5.. got to love it.. ?
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It's going to be interesting to see where Sony's next move takes them. For me to want to upgrade the FS7 then there's going to have to be some serious incentive and I'm guessing that's the same for F5/55 owners. There's not much point in an incremental upgrade for me and I'd want more than is actually on offer from any camera manufacturer at the moment. As an F5 owner what would make you want to upgrade, Donny?

The problem is there are cameras at various price points all shooting better quality than Broadcast TV can broadcast so there is much less of an incentive to upgrade. Even shooting for online 4k is still a tiny audience. I can see me hanging onto the FS7 until REC2020 becomes a reality because an extra couple of stops of DR or better low light or even 4k HFR are all nice but absolutely not essential. I think I'll be getting better bang for buck out of lighting gear, grip gear and live broadcast equipment for streaming in the short to medium term.
 
Sony always said they had a five year plan for the F5/55. I have no idea if my 4K for the F5 changed anything, but at the time they told me they were going to do it anyway… maybe, but they would say that wouldn’t they! What I do know is my F5 is now coming up for 4 years old - so by my reckoning, it would make sense to announce an F5/55 replacement at NAB to be available in the second half of next year?

To be honest, a 5 year life span for any pro camera in todays market has got to demand respect. I just hope they replace the F5/55 with one great camera… which is what they should have done in the first place!

This would have the added advantage of giving the FS7 more space in the market. At the moment it’s too close to the F5 in my opinion.

So what features would make everyone want to upgrade to an F9?
(or whatever they call it)
 
The huge turnover of cameras is very much an early digital thing. My experience of stills is that nikon (for instance) basically put out two duffers and then the third was great with the fourth only having incremental upgrades.

There is basically nothing wrong with the 5/55 if you can be arsed to shoot raw - 4k raw is close to our visual limits from a sensible viewing distance. Job done!

The thing is the 5/55 tops out at 4k60 (240HD is muzz) - so the only real upgrade is maybe 5k (space to crop) and more FPS so..

The F7/77
-1000FPS

Sort out design errors..
-headphone jack position
-audio pots
-decent hand controller - really decent - lacking from everything apart from maybe the new array handles

-connectivity that realises that is is no longer 1996
end to timecode - just make it right always
gps/motion tracking - enough data to stabilise/match effects
wifi decent app
dual slot recording
cashe record that remembers it is on
proxies
la la
trim off 1kg
speed booster for fz
 
Biggest problem with F5/55/Fs7 remains the inability to white balance in Slog mode which the competitors all offer. Even just making the LUT name visible in the viewfinder would help in the ability to use custom LUT's for various white balances. I imagine that would be fixed in a new camera.

Another really good improvement would be to put the auto focus system on the FS700 in the pro models. Even if only used occasionally it can sometimes be a lifesaver, say tracking someone walking toward camera. This is one place where Canon shines.

5K would probably be good as would a way to make the center scan work better for HD by maybe scanning wider or starting from a bigger sensor.
Higher speeds, and an even better codec (480XAVC, 16Bit Raw) also are good upgrades but the rest would be pretty minor fixes. Maybe a better balancing camera for shoulder work at least with the FS7.

You'll never get speed booster for FZ - not enough room.

Truth is they mostly hit the nail on the head with these cameras.
 
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All the LUT thing is pretty 1995.

Raw stills show a nice (in effect lutted) image, and record the metadata which is then baked to jpg (proxy) and properly handled in metadata in all major post software with out any input from the user until they decide to start throwing the wheels about.

It is not 1995. Sony need to pick up a pro level canon or nikon (stills) and throw them through lightroom

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Plenty of room with FZ to boost with stills lenses

--

Did they hit the nail?
Well the chip sets are great. For non HFR they all produce close to our visual limit resolution wise.

Then they designed the boxes and infrastructure.. and basically got absolutely everything wrong.
 
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I think Sony should do something similar to Panasonic's Varicam lineup. I would love the ability to share the same sensor but separate a few line items to make people pay for those features.

Both cameras would have:
- 8K/6K S35 sensor
- Dual Base ISO (use high sensitivity like A7sII, similar operation to Varicam) - 800-1600 low sen. / 4000-6400 high sen.
- 15 stops of DR
- 4K 10 bit 444 & 2K/1080p 12 bit 444
- 4K 120 FPS / 2K 240 FPS (internally)
- XAVC-I 480 Class
- Internal ProRes or HD Compressed RAW format?
- Built in ND's
- Dual XQD (get away from SxS?)
- Viewfinder screen like FS7 or EVF?

Differences:
1. $25-30k Sony Camera (body like F5/F55)
- Global Shutter
- 8K/6K at 10 bit 444
- FZ/PL Mount
- Ability to record Sony's RAW with R7 Recorder (possibly open up more compression rates like 6:1, 8:1, 10:1)
- V Mount Batteries

2. $8-12k Sony Camera (body like FS5/FS7)
- 8K/6K at 10 bit 422
- use the 7Q for RAW like FS5/FS7 (without a giant adapter like the FS7)
- E Mount (hopefully something more durable, like a reinforced E mount)
- BP-U Batteries
 
morgan_moore said:
All the LUT thing is pretty 1995.

Raw stills show a nice (in effect lutted) image, and record the metadata which is then baked to jpg (proxy) and properly handled in metadata in all major post software with out any input from the user until they decide to start throwing the wheels about.

It is not 1995. Sony need to pick up a pro level canon or nikon (stills) and throw them through lightroom

--
Plenty of room with FZ to boost with stills lenses

--

Did they hit the nail?
Well the chip sets are great. For non HFR they all produce close to our visual limit resolution wise.

Then they designed the boxes and infrastructure.. and basically got absolutely everything wrong.
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I don't give a toss about stills workflow for video. Just play with an r3d in Redcine-X for an hour to see how it should be done.

In terms of a new camera, 16-bit raw and/or 4k 120fps for me.
 
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Err, I think you will find that Red concept was basically Jim dreaming of a nikon D3 that did 24fps. The workflow is near identical. I don't really follow Red can you burn your skies in RCX yet?

As for the actual cameras stills cams produce (and wifi transmit) lutted proxies as a matter of course too.. and shoot both files to two cards at once which nulls a card failure bumming you. Which seems to me ideal.

I note the Vari messed up its proxies by losing half of the sound tracks. Which is pretty dumb because most edits start with evaluation of the audio.

It is well worth taking a D5 or 1dx for a spin.. these cameras show where video should be going. They are solid, well laid out professional tools designed with years of refinement, that are fit for purpose, unlike the low level design and ergonomics we see on most motion picture cameras
 
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My point is there's already a brilliant workflow for raw video out there. You don't need to look at stills and try to squidge that into a video workflow.

Lightroom and the Red 1 came out about the same time.

RCX is for primaries /or doing a onelight and/or transcoding

The Gamma/Gamut/colour science capabilities all in metadata are excellent.
 
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Well - I don't actually use Lightroom or RCX, I use Capture one for stills which is older and Resolve.

But we agree.. good control of luts (or not), meta data and the rest from operator, to director, to proxies, to the final colour are very important and sorely lacking in the sony house.

S
 
I'd recommend grabbing RCX. I'm sure I can upload an r3d for you to play with, albeit an MX sensor one.

It's incredible for a freebie. Obviously Resolve's raw tools are grand too.
 
Yep - when I evaluated and did not buy a Red I shot and did post on a bunch of stuff in RCX - It really worked as expected, but at that time you could not pull a secondary.

I did not buy a Red as I could not go raw only - I know that has moved on.

S
 
I want the FS8 to have properly (from the chip) downscaled 2K/1080p 12/10bit 444/422 in 24-120fps. Now its just crazy that you have to shoot 4K and then carefully manage the downscale in post to get really good 1080. On top of that the 4K also use a slightly bigger area of the sensor (try switching between between hd and 4k and look how the top and bottom of the frame sees more in 4k).

And carry the LUT in metadata like Arri.
And add a proper level VF-mount.
And rate the camera properly so that your EI value in camera matches your ligthmeter.
 
4K is a different aspect ratio to 1080p which why a different amount of the sensor is used.

Plus I don't think any Digital camera is accurate with its ISO ratings. It's a marketing ploy, not a fault :)

Agree completely about the mount, and the vf cable too. The only really weak design points.
 
Ben Scott said:
Well, secondaries are why you have resolve. RCX is for getting to the ballpark :)
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And that is where I'm a little lost - you get in the ballpark and export doing you final grande on nonsource material? Or use that ballpark for the edit and then go back to source for final grade in resolve having lost all the work you did getting in the ballpark in rcx? All sounds a bit 2003 to me.
 
ISO? A bit 2002. Simply The modern operator will be going for noise and headroom or ettr or various other options so any 'ISO' can have at least three values once you lut/look/grade is applied.
imo you should determin your understanding of ISO when you test the camera before use
 
Nirv said:
It's going to be interesting to see where Sony's next move takes them. For me to want to upgrade the FS7 then there's going to have to be some serious incentive and I'm guessing that's the same for F5/55 owners. There's not much point in an incremental upgrade for me and I'd want more than is actually on offer from any camera manufacturer at the moment. As an F5 owner what would make you want to upgrade, Donny?

The problem is there are cameras at various price points all shooting better quality than Broadcast TV can broadcast so there is much less of an incentive to upgrade. Even shooting for online 4k is still a tiny audience. I can see me hanging onto the FS7 until REC2020 becomes a reality because an extra couple of stops of DR or better low light or even 4k HFR are all nice but absolutely not essential. I think I'll be getting better bang for buck out of lighting gear, grip gear and live broadcast equipment for streaming in the short to medium term.
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Hi Nirv

Thats a good question.. without the great bonus of the internal 4K.. I would have sold the F5 already.. as requests for 4K came along alot quicker than I had estimated .. most likely I would have shelled out for the F55.. possibly this was Sony,s plan .. phase out the HD F5 .. and then just have Fs7 and F55.. but now the F5 is all I need.. yes some sort of offset WB like the Arri would be nice.. but not really worth changing camera,s.. at the moment I dont really know what would make me up grade.. I guess it would have to be something big like everything going 6K..although I cant see that happening till Sony make 6K TV,s :) I believe the F5 will be ok for HDR.. the F5 has turned out to be an almost perfect camera for me.. but only because of the bonus $1,000 4K internal upgrade..
 
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