XL2 vs 16mm

Z

zsl

Member
hi,
Just needed you guys to comment on this. I can't seem to make up my mind. you guys had to make a choice of shooting a 2 hour feature on DV or 16mm film. Which would it be?
I can shoot this feature on 16mm which would be on a very very tight budget. No frills and no means of exploiting the craft.
Or I could shoot it on the XL2 and have around 20,000$ to enhance production value.
What would you pick?

Another question that I have: When I transfer DV to Film, do I get the softness that we aspire for when we shoot film? (pardon my ignorance please)

Thanks,
Zohar.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

I always say, if you have to even ask, then shoot video. When your film demands FILM, you'll know it.

Spend your money on actors, script consultants, a production designer, etc...

With a little work in post the DVX can look AMAZINGLY like 16mm film. I mean really, really close -- some examples are on my forthcoming book/DVD. I would expect the XL2 to be able to accomplish the same.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Thanks a ton Barry.
Another question that I have: When I transfer DV to Film, do I get the softness that we aspire for when we shoot film? (pardon my ignorance please)
Zohar.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Shooting on DV you have to control the whole scene within 4 stop range.  A vision 2 500T will give you 8+ stop range. I am also in the similar situation as you, so I guess the solution can be DV+mattbox+filters+mini35......and that should give you a pretty good quality as 16mm or even better?

Anybody got any other ideas?
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=XL2;num=1096167711;start=0#1 date=09/25/04 at 20:47:27]With a little work in post the DVX can look AMAZINGLY like 16mm film. I mean really, really close -- some examples are on my forthcoming book/DVD. I would expect the XL2 to be able to accomplish the same.[/quote]

I just can't wait for your book/DVD to come out.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

To feed the thread : http://www.movienet.com/primer.html

This is an very interesting article done by Shane Carruth, writer/director of Primer and titled : You Can't Make A Film For $7,000.
It discuss the whole aspect on making a feature film in extreme conditions.

Personally, I'll take the xl2 and the 20,000$. I've done 2 s16 shorts in low budget conditions and it's very hard to do a good job when you just have 2 days to finish before the arri comes back to the rent house and it remains you half of scenes to shoot... (Especially, when you want to make some good lighting set)

I think now that the main advantage of film is that it gives you a discipline. (each meter is important in a roll...) (->storyboading and rehearsal with actors)

So keep the discipline of film and get all the advantages of a digital line product even if the picture quality is a little bit lower.

Just my 2 (euro) cents !

ps : What about the cost differences between a s16->35 blow-up and a dv->35 blow-up ?
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Hi,
1) Barry, - when does your book/dvd come out?

2) When I transfer DV to Film, do I get the softness that we aspire for when we shoot film? (pardon my ignorance please)

3) I am leaning towards the XL2 right now. Planning to buy one. I plan to rent everything else. My post is covered at a friends studio.

Thanks a lot you guys.... would love to hear some more comments.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

[quote author=hvpz link=board=XL2;num=1096167711;start=0#5 date=09/26/04 at 05:18:30]To feed the thread :


So keep the discipline of film and get all the advantages of a digital line product even if the picture quality is a little bit lower.

Just my 2 (euro) cents !

ps : What about the cost differences between a s16->35 blow-up and a dv->35 blow-up ?   [/quote]


that is so true. don´t waste tape just because it is "only" DV. plan the film like it is 16mm including the lightsetup, the shooting ratio (how much film used compared to the length of the film) etc.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

[quote author=alpi69 link=board=XL2;num=1096167711;start=0#7 date=09/26/04 at 08:13:03]


that is so true. don´t waste tape just because it is "only" DV. plan the film like it is 16mm including the lightsetup, the shooting ratio (how much film used compared to the length of the film) etc.

[/quote]

I do plan to do this film on a tight and planned schedule. Planning it over a 30 day shoot. Could do it in 26 days but that would leave me with no time to experiment. As for tape, I'm planning to shoot directly to disk.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

[quote author=zsl link=board=XL2;num=1096167711;start=0#6 date=09/26/04 at 06:02:50]Hi,
1) Barry, - when does your book/dvd come out?[/quote]
I'm aiming to have it mostly together by the end of this month. I don't know how much time manufacturing may add to that, but it's going to be soon.

2) When I transfer DV to Film, do I get the softness that we aspire for when we shoot film? (pardon my ignorance please)
Click to expand...
Well, that's kind of hard to answer. Film has a more organic look to it, DV is electronic and harsher. But when you transfer it up to film, it'll get *really* soft, probably softer than you want. Best thing to do is see for yourself, by either visiting DuArt in NYC, arranging to see DVFilm's demo reel in L.A., or, if you're not in those regions, you can have them send the print to you if you leave a deposit with them. DVFilm's reel has some of my stuff shot DVX/Anamorphic and some stuff shot by someone else that's PAL DVX/Anamorphic.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Barry,
That book would be nice to read before I shoot...

I'm planning to contact a lab in my city (Bombay) to see if they have any such demo reels available, or even a frame grab for that matter.

Thanks once again ya.
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Now how much would anybody save from going the 16mm >35mm and DV to 35mm is a good question. Because, let's say you have to do everything so very tight. So you shoot your negs, develop and telecine offline. Then you assembly the negative put toghether positive print and blow it up (I don't know if people blow stuff up directly from the negative... In fact now that I think of it, it really seems more reasonable...) So forget about the first "answer print", it would be probably negative to 35mm print. That is a lot of costs. Film negs, telecines, Blow up, and I even forgot to mention setting the printer lights - what's it called aggain? (I'm not an expert in those ancient processes...). On the other hand, transfering 2 hours of DV is also a painfull experience in your budget. Either way, things will not come cheap.

Barry can't wait for your book. Hope it doesn't come as expensive as people was suggesting (everithing is 3x more in local currency...)! ;)
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

hi taubkin,
To be honest, I'll consider a blow-up only if a distributor is willing to pick it up at his cost. 8) ;D ???

Zohar
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

You don't need a blow up if you dont have a distributor. If you're just having a small screening, most places can project off of BetaSP or DVD anyways :P
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

So you shoot S16, Telecine Online to DV or Beta, or DVC, or DigiBeta, etc... And edit a video version, and if someone pays for all the rest, as answer prints, light adjustments and Blow up to 35 you do it. The question is: Will Blowing up an (unedited negative) to 35 be cheaper than transfering a mastered DV footage? If it is, well I don't think it's going to be that much. Besides the initial image quality, would a film shot on S16/edited on video have more sales pitch over one shot on DV? Perhaps...

Boy, all those paths to finishing make my head hurt...
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

hi zsl

well, there are some films made with canon xl1s..and is converted into 24p . worked great. Concentrating on lens, lighting and story. , will definately go side by side. majorly work on lighting section., your problems will be solved. I think regarding lens better to buy 16x manual lens. with is very worthful, i know if you are using canon xl2 you go for 25p, compared to ntsc . pal standards are exceptional for filmmaking. as xl2 pal has high resolution than ntsc, when the frames are blown to film., you dont get any problems. There are so many things you have to consider, try some reviews before you can do it. Since i am also planning to start with a small documentary film,  I grabbed lot of data from the internet and these forums so also reviews. Try to watch " 28 days later" ..etc films made by dv cams.
After buying the camera.. shoot some footage of 1 minute and blow it to film ,can be done by production companies.
Since some people are saying xl2 does't have color. well it looks very fine on television but about film no one yet tested. may be you are the first.

you can do a lot of things with these cams...its unlimited....

hope so wish you a good luck


vamshi
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

[quote author=taubkin link=board=XL2;num=1096167711;start=15#15 date=09/27/04 at 07:20:30]The question is: Will Blowing up an (unedited negative) to 35 be cheaper than transfering a mastered DV footage? [/quote]

A better process might be to one light transfer the dailies (scan or Telecine), creating a 1k – 3k digital intermediate, electronically post produce and then you can write it out to what ever format you can afford. Two great companies to work with in the LA area are CIS/Efilm or I/OFilms.

I have seen quite a few independent films shot on 35 then color correct every shot as they transfer to digibeta then electronically post produce. This is way to costly, takes way too long and once completed if they had any money left (usually they don’t) for a film out, the quality is not very good.

If you are going to conform the negative you can one light the dailies, to get digital proxies used for creative editorial, then only the negative you need can be re-accessed for a scene-to-scene transfer, or for a negative cut for film printing.

If you can afford to shoot on S16, you might want to check the rental companies who probably have some aging – but still very good, HD equipment that they would rent for the same price as the S16 equipment.


Good luck
 
Re: XL2 vs 16mm

Vamshi check out the site for PRIMER movie. On his BBS he talks about his process from S16 to blow up. I think the actual production of the film was 7k but the blow up was close to 25k. I'd love to shoot with S16 but I love dumping right to a PC at my leisure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top