XDCAM vs. P2
- Thread starter Steve55
- Start date
As an HVX owner and shooter, I think I have a good foundation of operational knowledge to assist Steve in his article. I'm not an engineer, but I will have a solid feel for these cameras after a few weeks of 6-tape days on a second-season broadcast series.
As we all know, a six-tape day on an HVX is incredibly tedious at this point. I'd like to hear from someone who can explain a workflow for high-ratio P2 acquisition without a second dedicated technician on-site who is focused entirely on data management.
With a second P2 Store in 720-24PN it is possible for one person (who is willing to sit absolutely still for 4.6 minutes at a time during downloads) to achieve almost 5 hours of footage on their own. In broadcast reality and documentary work, this is almost never a realistic scenario.
I'll say it again: we need a 120GB P2Store for starters. Larger cards alone are not the answer. Simply not the answer until they hit 128GB. That day cannot come soon enough.
I can say with some confidence that XDCam will be the hands-down choice in my field, regardless of the format's lesser-quality, for a few key reasons:
1. One operator should be able to manage their own data completely on-the-run.
2. Once the disk is shot, it is handed-off to your Logger-PA or AP. A new one is loaded and there is nothing else to do prior to shooting again.
3. XDCam, even at the highest bitrate, is able to record over 65 minutes of HD with 4-channel audio. For legacy television producers, the 60-minute load is a bigger deal than we assume it is.
e
As we all know, a six-tape day on an HVX is incredibly tedious at this point. I'd like to hear from someone who can explain a workflow for high-ratio P2 acquisition without a second dedicated technician on-site who is focused entirely on data management.
With a second P2 Store in 720-24PN it is possible for one person (who is willing to sit absolutely still for 4.6 minutes at a time during downloads) to achieve almost 5 hours of footage on their own. In broadcast reality and documentary work, this is almost never a realistic scenario.
I'll say it again: we need a 120GB P2Store for starters. Larger cards alone are not the answer. Simply not the answer until they hit 128GB. That day cannot come soon enough.
I can say with some confidence that XDCam will be the hands-down choice in my field, regardless of the format's lesser-quality, for a few key reasons:
1. One operator should be able to manage their own data completely on-the-run.
2. Once the disk is shot, it is handed-off to your Logger-PA or AP. A new one is loaded and there is nothing else to do prior to shooting again.
3. XDCam, even at the highest bitrate, is able to record over 65 minutes of HD with 4-channel audio. For legacy television producers, the 60-minute load is a bigger deal than we assume it is.
e
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
overlandfilms said:
The point here is that you are comparing the form factor of a $6000 camera with the form factor of a much more expensive camera. The larger cameras do have more slots and thus changes the shooting quation a bit. A two slot HVX is different than a 5 slot camera, that being the AJ-HDC2000, due out later this year. Still your point is taken about longer record times, but that can only be addressed at this time with yet another moving mechanism, called an FS-100 or the upcoming Cine-Porter.
FWIW,
JAn
dregenthal
Veteran
overlandfilms said:
I own a P2Store and am considering buying another.
A hardware upgrade for the present model, or a reasonably priced larger capacity "A" model would be just the ticket!
If available I would buy one immediately . . .
Jan,
There are significant quality trade-offs in doing so, but there are plenty of "HD" 1/3 form-factor cameras that have the capacity to record 64 minutes at a time.
The XD versus HVX thread was someone else's idea - doesn't change the fact that capacity and mobility are the two paramount challenges to the P2 workflow.
I do strictly broadcast with highly mobile, heavy ratio days. P2 isn't ready for this type of work. Not at the pricepoint level, the capacity level or the ease of workflow level. I can't rent a package to a client with a FireStore that might sort of work. Cineporter might come to market soon.
Tape works. XDCam is out there and I'm committed to discovering whether it is a viable option for this type of work.
If I have studio-like control over my mid-budget productions, then the HVX is my chosen camera. My investment in a full HVX package over the Sony Z1U is a testament to my feelings about the camera and the promise of P2 workflow.
At present, I have undeniable reservations about using P2 for certain kinds of production.
e
There are significant quality trade-offs in doing so, but there are plenty of "HD" 1/3 form-factor cameras that have the capacity to record 64 minutes at a time.
The XD versus HVX thread was someone else's idea - doesn't change the fact that capacity and mobility are the two paramount challenges to the P2 workflow.
I do strictly broadcast with highly mobile, heavy ratio days. P2 isn't ready for this type of work. Not at the pricepoint level, the capacity level or the ease of workflow level. I can't rent a package to a client with a FireStore that might sort of work. Cineporter might come to market soon.
Tape works. XDCam is out there and I'm committed to discovering whether it is a viable option for this type of work.
If I have studio-like control over my mid-budget productions, then the HVX is my chosen camera. My investment in a full HVX package over the Sony Z1U is a testament to my feelings about the camera and the promise of P2 workflow.
At present, I have undeniable reservations about using P2 for certain kinds of production.
e
Jan, I'm not convinced that Steve was showing bias as such, just pointing out an undeniable drawback to P2 (cf XDCAM) - that whilst a cameraman can shoot an XDCAM disc and simply give it away to be used and remain as an archive, the same cannot be done with P2. For some users that is merely an inconvienience, but for others it is not merely a huge negative, but it makes P2 a complete no-no (at the moment). There are many aspects of P2 that do (IMO) make it technically superior to XDCAM, but any comparison cannot ignore this issue, it is fundamental in so many scenarios.Jan_Crittenden said:
But I don't regard XDCAM as an ideal scenario in many ways, and have raised the prospect of alternatives TO BOTH in previous posts - posed the question of what does P2 offer that Compact Flash, SD or such does not for the average user. Therefore Jan, could you tell us why in your opinion, a user would be better off with a solution where only one P2 card can be bought whilst the same cost may buy several times the number of CF cards with the same capacity and "good enough" speed?
I agree fully with everything said about Moores Law and the implications, but that doesn't change the argument, only really emphasises how cheaper than P2 solid state implementations will have advantages in the future. I'd much prefer 4 8GB CF cards to one 32GB P2 card anyway (one may be given away, the other three kept), and if future price trends continue, it's more likely that about 16 CF cards will be able to be bought in the future for the cost of a single 32GB P2!
I'll throw in an *edit* here on my jab at the FireStore. Sounds like the buffer software patch has been working for users who have done the download.
If the patch does the trick, I'll be purchasing two of these units.
e
If the patch does the trick, I'll be purchasing two of these units.
e
We've been using these cameras (CineAlta XDCamHD 350s) for a couple of weeks now and I have to say that it's a very nice system overall.
If you're familiar with CineAlta or any of the 2/3" form-factor Sony broadcast equipment, you'll find everything follows the standards you expect from them. Most impressive, of course, is the XDCam disk recording media.
If you're accustomed to tape-based recording, XDCam will feel little different. Pop in a disk, wait about fifteen seconds as the camera formats it, and you're off and running. About 63 minutes of recording time at the highest rate with 4 channels of audio.
Variable frame rates are 4 - 60 FPS with interval recording also available under a "SPECIAL EFFECTS" menu. Accessing these menus is as it is on any Sony camera, with main menu one momentary-style toggle click away (near the gain switch), and submenus called up by depressing the toggle and scroll button simultaneously.
Interval for time-lapse is seemingly infinite, with variable number of frames and time between frames independently adjustable. We're using this feature extensively.
We've had no data loss at the highest bitrates despite some jarring during driving sequences.
Thumbnail review is a one-button operation with simple "PLAY", "FIRST FRAME" and "LAST FRAME" buttons that look just like the ones you'd find on a standard DVCam unit.
After reviewing your shots, simply press the "THUMBNAIL" button and you're back to shooting.
I think, based solely on a week's operation, that you must pre-roll this camera as you would a tape-based system.
Sony is still working on Avid support for the .MXF files.
These 1/2 cameras are heavy. They come in at about 18 lbs. with HD viewfinder and half-brick Anton Bauer attached. The units we're using are fitted with 2/3 Canon eHDxs 4.7 - 52mm glass on 1/2 adapters.
Let me know if you have any questions on the system and I'll try to answer in good time!
e
If you're familiar with CineAlta or any of the 2/3" form-factor Sony broadcast equipment, you'll find everything follows the standards you expect from them. Most impressive, of course, is the XDCam disk recording media.
If you're accustomed to tape-based recording, XDCam will feel little different. Pop in a disk, wait about fifteen seconds as the camera formats it, and you're off and running. About 63 minutes of recording time at the highest rate with 4 channels of audio.
Variable frame rates are 4 - 60 FPS with interval recording also available under a "SPECIAL EFFECTS" menu. Accessing these menus is as it is on any Sony camera, with main menu one momentary-style toggle click away (near the gain switch), and submenus called up by depressing the toggle and scroll button simultaneously.
Interval for time-lapse is seemingly infinite, with variable number of frames and time between frames independently adjustable. We're using this feature extensively.
We've had no data loss at the highest bitrates despite some jarring during driving sequences.
Thumbnail review is a one-button operation with simple "PLAY", "FIRST FRAME" and "LAST FRAME" buttons that look just like the ones you'd find on a standard DVCam unit.
After reviewing your shots, simply press the "THUMBNAIL" button and you're back to shooting.
I think, based solely on a week's operation, that you must pre-roll this camera as you would a tape-based system.
Sony is still working on Avid support for the .MXF files.
These 1/2 cameras are heavy. They come in at about 18 lbs. with HD viewfinder and half-brick Anton Bauer attached. The units we're using are fitted with 2/3 Canon eHDxs 4.7 - 52mm glass on 1/2 adapters.
Let me know if you have any questions on the system and I'll try to answer in good time!
e
Barry_Green
Moderator
Hey Erik, here's one that someone threw at me and I have no idea... they said that since the blu-ray system is a single-session system, when you're done shooting it has to "finalize" the disc... so what would happen if the battery died during shooting? He speculated that everything on the disc would be lost, just like a "coaster" DVD. Is that true? Or does the Sony system have some protection against that happening?
I don't know how it works, but we've had several half-bricks die during longer time-lapse gags. We've had no data loss up to the obvious point where the camera powers down.
I don't know how the data is protected, but it all seems to be there.
e
I don't know how the data is protected, but it all seems to be there.
e
Just to answer the question on lost footage due to battery-related shutdowns...
The Sony trainer told us during our tutorial (we're the first US broadcast show shooting entirely on XDCam HD) that the "salvage" function would restore error clips.
We had our first salvage situation today after a 58 minute time-lapse ran the camera out - the clip was restored and all other clips on the disk were unaffected.
More as I know it.
e
The Sony trainer told us during our tutorial (we're the first US broadcast show shooting entirely on XDCam HD) that the "salvage" function would restore error clips.
We had our first salvage situation today after a 58 minute time-lapse ran the camera out - the clip was restored and all other clips on the disk were unaffected.
More as I know it.
e
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
We used 2 of the XDCam SD cameras at my last job and the Sony XDCam disks held up just fine.
Note to Panasonic...
Note to Panasonic...
It is noteworthy that Sony is making their intuitive, flexible XDCam MXF Viewer utility available to anyone who wants to sign the EULA. No serial number necessary.
Panasonic, if they want to compete with the XDCam / XDCamHD platform, would do well to implement the same access to any and all P2 support utlities.
Just my $.02 from the field.
Uh, oh yeah... this utility is available from Sony for Mac at no cost to users.
http://www.sonybiz.net/b2b/sony-bus...dcam-mxf-viewer-new-xdcam-reference-info.html
Note to Panasonic...
It is noteworthy that Sony is making their intuitive, flexible XDCam MXF Viewer utility available to anyone who wants to sign the EULA. No serial number necessary.
Panasonic, if they want to compete with the XDCam / XDCamHD platform, would do well to implement the same access to any and all P2 support utlities.
Just my $.02 from the field.
Uh, oh yeah... this utility is available from Sony for Mac at no cost to users.
http://www.sonybiz.net/b2b/sony-bus...dcam-mxf-viewer-new-xdcam-reference-info.html
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