Writer's Guild Going on Strike

[Paul F]

... it is just going to hurt their business if they do not keep feeding the supply line. The audience will start ending their subscriptions, not by churning, but just not spending the money. Why churn to another provider if you have already seen their back catalog.

Exactly. This was my opinion when Tom first posted and that seems certain to be the case for the long term. But I hadn't realized how much money they were losing pre-strike. That made Tom's comments make a lot more sense. I didn't see the short-term consequences. "Hey, we are losing money. We have to cut expenses and/or get more subscribers"......then....."Hey, we have to lose even more money due to the demands of the unions". That's a really bad combination. So running to the bargaining table to lose more money and accomodate demands is a big pill to swallow given they are in deep ..... poop..... as it is.

Sure, they want to settle it. But with no profits as it is, they aren't going to be in a hurry to be generous.

 

[Doug Bee]

Or everyone's favorite, lining up a shot on the finder with their back to a wall without allowing for the length of the camera.

Ha!

I call this the Artemis tax.

I saw an operator politely move the directors iPhone that was against a wall saying, there is three feet of camera behind the phone sir

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Sony Rialto can solve that too close to wall problem!

It seems to me that streamers make more content than they need to, more than anyone can watch in a life time, so if they all reduced the amount of content they made, they could reduce spending and hopefully find a sweet spot between proper amount of spending and maintaining a profitable enough amount of subscribers.

There would then be less film jobs, but I’d say it’s better for an industry to have 500,000 well paying jobs rather than a million underpaid jobs.

The streamers all rushed as start ups to make as much content as possible, with Netflix going into major debt and Disney+ losing money, and after the initial surge to all compete for subscribers, now a strike is giving them all a break to reassess.

I’m kind of curious what stops them from funding and licensing various non-union productions. Most high end people are union, but there are still plenty of non-union people in the film industry that would be capable of making professional productions. I’ve heard about low budget productions being forced to become union in the middle of filming (which sometimes destroys the movie since they don’t have the funds to do so), but I am not aware of how they are “forced” to go union. So maybe I’m coming upon a question here; most non-union productions are low budget (under $500k), so what (aside from limited talent pool) would stop steamer from being able to make a 50 mil budget non-union movie (during a strike)?

I also wonder if the strike drags out of the streamers will end up licensing more low budget non-union movies.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Charles already quoted the basic agreement rate.

Few actually get paid that rate.

A commercial DP is 5-15K per day depending on who it is. Some charge prep some don't.

A typical TV episodic DP was getting 10-15K plus $500 box rental per week depending on the show and the DP's market presence, plus about 6K per month for living away from home plus car plus a few return first class flights and maybe a few weeks of grading if your agent is any good. Most TV shows are 6-10 months and usually aren't shooting where the DP lives.

And maybe gear on top of that if the DP owns lenses or heads or monitors or fiz units whatever. Last show I did the DP rented his remote head to the show for 120K for 8 months. Plus of course medical and pension is taken care of.

Are you making that and booking work every day for a 6-10 month straight stretch on your corporate gigs? Doco? Just for being a DP without gear?

Is that a six day week? If so, that would be 1,666-2,500 per day for labor based on your numbers. If we go by Charles saying he finds the rates to be 25% of what Doug stated, that brings the rates to $1250-$1875 per day, which is generally below the corporate rates I have been charging. Then you add to that what Charles said about long form rental rates being quite low, compared to high 1-3 day rates for corporate rentals, and the pay difference could become more substantial.

I'm not aware of how retirement benefits and health insurances works in the union. So if a client (say, a movie) offers you $1500 per day for labor rate, they may be also directly paying to you or the union an additional say $1000 per day to cover your retirement fund and health insurance? So in effect, they're actually paying $2500 per day, which then about evens out as Alaska dude said in relation to having more similar rates to corporate work?

It doesn't sound like that bad of an idea to mention the cost of retirement and healthcare not being covered when offered a "union rate" by a producer.


A day of work is a day of work whether you work 6-10 months straight and then take four months off or work 2-3 days a week year round day playing on corporate jobs and such. Work life balance is important so unless someone is a workaholic, working non-stop while obviously good financially isn't necessarily ideal. I think it's a common trend that movies pay less per day but result in more days of work than corporate while corporate pays more per day but has less steady work, so it's a bit of pick your poison. Movies may end up making a bit more money for the DP overall, but at the cost of working twice as much to get 25-50% more pay, and thus making less per hour/day. Six 12 hour days per week is 72 hours, which is a lot of work in a week if 12 hour days are standard, though I hear overtime beyond that is pretty common as well (for better and for worse).

IATSE members are gaining nothing from this strike and losing a lot; they threatened strike last year and from what I heard got a rather nothingburger deal due to (from heresay/theory I heard) the IATSE leaders being paid off to make a settlement. Seems to me IATSE members should just join in on this current strike rather than sit by the sidelines and get nothing out of it, that way once the strike is resolved, they'd hopefully be able to negotiate a better deal that would have made the SAG and writer's strike more worth it for IATSE members.

 

[Doug Bee]

You are talking about a show flipping. When it starts non union and then flips.

Strange as it seems to this board, most crew want to be in the union or already are.

If I work on a non union show I am certainly allowed to. I do have to report that I doing a non union show.

If the union learn of a show that is shooting and it has a budget of say more than a million, it becomes a candidate for flipping. They have different scales and agreements depending on the budget. Usually at about a million+ the show can afford to pay the extra benefits and medical for the crew, though the rates are typically similar. The union seem to target 1-5 million as the threshold.

So the union approach the production and offer to flip the show. They have different tiers and scales depending on the budget bracket.

If the show refuses to do so then they can picket the show.

So if you are non-union crew that want to join the union then you do not want to be getting a black mark for crossing a picket do you?

So a show is picketed. Union crew will not work on it. Prospective union crew do not an ant to kill their chances of joining the union.

So the show inevitably flips.

As to streamers picking up non union content. More likely it is overseas content that is not encumbered.

Any US shot show of more than a million is very likely to be union.

So if it is shot union or flipped then it likely has a waiver. And that waiver is conditional.

Any streamer that buys that movie has to pay the terms that are built into the waiver of that film.

Those SAG waivers for example have specific terms about residuals etc. The terms have been rejected by the AMPTP but if they are to buy this movie the condition of purchase is agreeing to those rejected terms.

So if the streamers buy any US originated content chances are it comes with strings attached.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I see. So basically the talent pool for a larger budget (say 20 mil) non-union production that could deny flipping would be not only non-union workers, but also workers who did not aspire to ever join a union. Where do I sign up?! :2vrolijk_08:

 

[Doug Bee]

Eric the DP on my last show made 12k per week for a 5 day week. A sixth day would be charged at time and a half if it happened. OT was due after 13 hours. Most DPs will work till 12 without clocking the hours. On an away job the DP is portal to portal, meaning, the day starts when you walk out the door of your accomodation and ends when you return.

Pension and medical is on top of that. Mandated turnaround and rest periods enforced by the union deal. Most of what I just described isn't the union's negotiated terms, it's just the market terms for an episodic DP. The union enforce things like turnaround, have the ability to audit the show to make sure they are calculating the fringes properly etc.

It is tiring. I feel like you guys have no understanding or desire to understand and I do not need to defend union membership. I have lots of issues with it. I was just trying to address the gross misunderstandings I see here but it is all so exhausting. Leaving you all to it.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Is that a six day week? If so, that would be 1,666-2,500 per day for labor based on your numbers. If we go by Charles saying he finds the rates to be 25% of what Doug stated, that brings the rates to $1250-$1875 per day, which is generally below the corporate rates I have been charging.

Just to be clear, what I said was "I will concur with what Doug said above other than I'd probably drop the range of rates down by 25% from those quotes, overall." Although it seems like you got my intent from the numbers listed.

Doug, I'm glad for your DP that he made $12K a week, would be curious to know what the hourly was because obviously OT is a major factor in the weekly take (the last network series I shot was on strictly observed 12's) and assuming that is not including his rentals? Doesn't really matter ultimately, just curious.

I'm pretty worn out from discussing this too.

 

[ahalpert]

I would also imagine that Eric takes a lower rate when shooting shorts/features instead of commercials/interviews, which should then be the comparison against union feature rates. But if not, then good for you!

Or, more to the point, Doug Bee quoted commercial union rates at 2-5x/day as high as features. So, I guess Eric could calculate doing a couple days of that work weekly and maintain the same work/life balance. And probably get better kit fees than features on a per day basis seems to be the implication

 

[ahalpert]

Exactly. This was my opinion when Tom first posted and that seems certain to be the case for the long term. But I hadn't realized how much money they were losing pre-strike. That made Tom's comments make a lot more sense. I didn't see the short-term consequences. "Hey, we are losing money. We have to cut expenses and/or get more subscribers"......then....."Hey, we have to lose even more money due to the demands of the unions". That's a really bad combination. So running to the bargaining table to lose more money and accomodate demands is a big pill to swallow given they are in deep ..... poop..... as it is.

Sure, they want to settle it. But with no profits as it is, they aren't going to be in a hurry to be generous.

this is a silly way of looking at things. you're basically saying that their business is losing money so they'd be better off going out of business.

yes, if all you care about is quarterly reports then you could keep going for a while without feeling the pain of the strikes. but I think the dynamics here are quite a bit different because broadcast and theatrical are contracting while streaming is expanding. it's a very risky move for broadcast/theatrical to let their customers lose interest in your business because they may never come back. they compete with video games, tiktok, sports, etc for customers' eyeball time. Look what happened during the pandemic with remote work -- who could have imagined that the daily commute would so quickly become outdated? But the pandemic lasted just long enough that Manhattan is now full of empty office buildings that are probably never coming back to life, which is a serious problem for the city.

Streamers are in a much better position to wait this out, I think. If consumption patterns shift as a result, it will probably be to their benefit. I think Tom Roper described himself as a refugee from cable TV packages. If there's nothing new on TV for a while, it could accelerate cord-cutting. I would imagine that there are major disagreements between members of the AMPTP on how to proceed.

 

[Bassman2003]

I disagree that it is silly to continue to lose money in a business. If it is a dead end model, then it is better off shutting down. I know quite a few folks that have burned through either Amazon or Netflix's library of things that interested them and cancelled the service. All of these streaming offerings could see their customer base erode within the space of a year and have a way different future in a short amount of time. The cable model was a bit different because the cable companies did not per se create the content. Just create an ecosystem to show it. Now, consumers are picking the ecosystem based upon the content within, a lot coming from the entity itself.

Who are going to be the winners? That is what the unions need to decide and try to focus on that future. Apple and Amazon could leave the space at anytime if it does not align with their objectives as a company. They probably will stay along with Netflix & Disney but how much are you willing to pay for these streaming services? Probably not $240 a month!

 

[CharlesPapert]

Sony Rialto can solve that too close to wall problem!

Most of the time, there is a simpler solution to everything. Moving the actors a few inches upstage will generally fix this. Or widen out a few mm's.

Over the years I have developed a sort of spidey sense about all things spatial. If I walk into a location or a stage and feeling like it's just too small or crowded to get the job done properly or quickly, it manifests like a little tense feeling between the shoulder blades. When I ask for the on-set dresser to move furniture out of the way so we can set up a shot, I try to avoid having them do more than absolutely have to, to but still it has to be enough to not be fighting it later on. Sometimes on location things can't be moved, no-one else sees it as a problem, I get that tension in the upper back--and inevitably later on I will want to put a light or the camera exactly where that damn thing is. It never fails!

A few years back I shot an MTV Movie Awards sketch parodying "Stranger Things". We had a big wizened tree on stage, the rest was green screen. I had given production a specific minimum size for the stage based on what I knew about the action, and they ended up renting one that was at best 2/3 of that size. On our rigging day, I determined where the camera needed to go to get a wide shot of the tree, and realized that we would see the entire stage so the critical carts that needed to be on stage (video village, my monitor cart, DIT and sound) had to be stuffed between the camera and the elephant door--we were going to need every available inch on that stage. However there were a bunch of flats stored in that corner and I requested multiple times to have them removed from the stage before we started the shoot, and on my way out that night mentioned it again to the line producer who was going be in an hour before me in the morning. She said "I have a thousand things going on, why are you bothering me with this, yes fine, they will be gone".

The next morning I arrived and of course, half of the flats were still in place. A good 30 minutes was wasted getting them out of the way before the carts could land properly, because now we had a full company filling up the space so it was a cluster. I mentioned this to the line producer and she just shrugged, so what, they are getting moved now. I was overseeing landing the essential carts into the corner like a drill sergeant. Everyone seemed to be fighting me on why this all needed to happen this way until finally the camera landed, with the battery inches from the rear of the video village monitors. We were just barely able to get the shot we needed, there was no fudge factor.

At the end of the day we are into OT and the line producer is giving me grief on how late we are going and I really wanted to point out that if she had taken me seriously on those stupid flats, we would have already wrapped. But of course, it wouldn't have gone well if I had.

I love my job...?

 

[Tom Roper]

Streamers are in a much better position to wait this out, I think. If consumption patterns shift as a result, it will probably be to their benefit. I think Tom Roper described himself as a refugee from cable TV packages. If there's nothing new on TV for a while, it could accelerate cord-cutting. I would imagine that there are major disagreements between members of the AMPTP on how to proceed.

The objection to TV packages is the long term contract. The packages are the only place to get exclusive content.

 

[Paul F]

this is a silly way of looking at things. you're basically saying that their business is losing money so they'd be better off going out of business.

I said exactly the same thing when Tom first posted his thoughts. As he said, you've got to think like they do, not like you do.

Disney+ subscribers peaked in 2022 and are now in decline. The division is losing $1billion/quarter.

So the ship is taking on water faster than they can bale it out. Meanwhile, the crew is not helping bale the water.

Crew: "Hey, we will help bale water only if you meet our demands".
Captain: "What are your demands?".
Crew: "Cut bigger holes in the ship and then we will help bale at a pace slower than the water is coming in"

That's essentially what's on the negotiating table.

At the beginning of the year, executives were trying to figure out how to keep their jobs and bring the division back to profitability. Then three strikes come along, one of which is demanding to add an additional 11% expense for actor's salaries (SAG demand) and an additional expense of 2% of the gross revenue (SAG demand). Then add the additional expense of what the WGA is asking.

The ship is sinking and the crew is making demands that will make the ship sink faster. So the companies are not in a hurry to cut holes in the ship. The longer they wait, the longer they can bale and look for a solution. If they agree to the union demands, then it just gets worse, not better. What's the solution? They need more subscribers (not happening in the near term), higher prices (subscribers are dropping, so that's not a solution), fewer productions (not good for unions or subscriptions), less expensive productions (not good for unions or subscriptions), fewer competitors (it's currently a game of cut throat) or the cast and crew take less money.

 

[ahalpert]

I disagree that it is silly to continue to lose money in a business. If it is a dead end model, then it is better off shutting down. I know quite a few folks that have burned through either Amazon or Netflix's library of things that interested them and cancelled the service. All of these streaming offerings could see their customer base erode within the space of a year and have a way different future in a short amount of time. The cable model was a bit different because the cable companies did not per se create the content. Just create an ecosystem to show it. Now, consumers are picking the ecosystem based upon the content within, a lot coming from the entity itself.

Who are going to be the winners? That is what the unions need to decide and try to focus on that future. Apple and Amazon could leave the space at anytime if it does not align with their objectives as a company. They probably will stay along with Netflix & Disney but how much are you willing to pay for these streaming services? Probably not $240 a month!

There is a sustainable future in the industry for whoever can stick around to see it because consumer demand is high. Even with changing viewing habits, people (including young people) watch a lot of movies/TV. The future may involve higher subscription prices and less production, but if studios can survive in the interim they can profit in the future.

Just look at what's happening with streamers. Subscription prices are rising and they've started offering ad-supported plans which seems to be their preference because they're more profitable. They are headed towards a new equilibrium point which will probably bode well for the survival of broadcast on a smaller scale. (You have to pay a lot for all the content with either broadcast or streamers and you have to watch ads either way, so a cable TV package becomes more attractive by comparison than it recently was.)

It's definitely best for both unions and customers if there are more players in the production/distribution space rather than fewer.

I don't think of Amazon as a regular streamer. We get their service because of Amazon prime but don't watch it regularly.

I don't think Netflix's subscription numbers show any sign of abating yet, especially with their successful push to crack down on password-sharing. We had Netflix for about 10 years and then canceled it in 2020 to start churning. We came back early this year. I'm canceling it in September. We'll come back and so will your friends. There will be more to see later.

 

[ahalpert]

.

At the end of the day we are into OT and the line producer is giving me grief on how late we are going and I really wanted to point out that if she had taken me seriously on those stupid flats, we would have already wrapped. But of course, it wouldn't have gone well if I had.

I love my job...?

[

Like they say in war, "Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics." Otherwise, looks like it was a fun shoot!

 

[Bassman2003]

There is a sustainable future in the industry for whoever can stick around to see it because consumer demand is high.

I am not sold on blanket consumer demand. I agree, there is a voracious appetite for media, but I do not think that necessarily translates to demand. People around the world have shown they will do anything to get around paying for things like media. Remember the Napster feeding frenzy with MP3 files? Human nature at its finest. What followed was a demise of the music industry as we knew it. I see the same for visual entertainment. It is quite commoditized at this point, so demand only goes to a point of very slight discomfort, then another avenue is sought. What might look like a great market opportunity in my eyes continues as a race to the bottom of an ever fragmented space. Not saying anything is falling off of a cliff tomorrow, I just think profit margins are going to be tight for the foreseeable future.

 

[mico]

Happy labor day especially to the misinformed and downright ignorant. Thank the unions. Your long weekend has been brought to you by the American labor movement. They’re also the ones who fought for the 40-hour workweek, overtime pay, employee benefits, safe working conditions, and child labor laws.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Happy labor day especially to the misinformed and downright ignorant. Thank the unions. Your long weekend has been brought to you by the American labor movement. They’re also the ones who fought for the 40-hour workweek, overtime pay, employee benefits, safe working conditions, and child labor laws.

No thanks. But it is cute you think so.

 

[Paul F]

Happy labor day especially to the misinformed and downright ignorant. Thank the unions. Your long weekend has been brought to you by the American labor movement. They’re also the ones who fought for the 40-hour workweek, overtime pay, employee benefits, safe working conditions, and child labor laws.

Here here to Labor Mico. My grandfather was labor. He was suckered by men going to Italy to recruit laborers to work in the fields. He left a decent job in Italy only to end up as a sharecropper. With only a mule and a plow, he grew cotton. My father, as a young boy, would chop cotton and pick it at harvest time. Today, labor is out there standing on hot asphalt under the sun putting in new pavement, they are maintaining the sewers and water supplies we are dependent on and they break their backs in the fields of the San Joaquin Valley picking lettuce and peppers for our tables.

Let's raise a glass to them all.