Would you take a job for little or no pay, or would you walk away?

[keylight]

Assume someone - say a non-profit - comes to you in need of a 5 minute marketing video they are going to send out to all of their big donors (assume that includes a lot of corporate donors). The budget they have for the video is about 1/5th of what you would normally charge for what they want. If you do the video, they'll let you put your contact information at the end of it, which could really help you with marketing, networking....

Do you:

A. Take the job for the budget they have.
B. Say thank you but no thanks.
C. Take the job for free, and only charge them for your out of pocket expenses.

This is a poll, but please do more than vote. Give some input into why you voted the way you did. What factors went in to your decision? If you take the job, do you do it for expenses or do you take the small fee?

 

[Boncrek]

Well I do work with a church ministry so I do lots of "little or no pay" work.
It does help get my name out there for paying clients though.
Doing good work regardless of pay is difficult to say the least but it gives you a standard that people will know you for.
The downside of all this is you may foster a reputation for being cheap...trust me its difficult to shake that rep.
So there are two sides to this coin.

 

[Drew Ott]

Depends on what other work I was doing at the time... and if I like the non profit.

I do much more free work than paid work. I'm usually looking for some kind of artistic reward. That said, I'm not supporting a family.

 

[keylight]

Well I do work with a church ministry so I do lots of "little or no pay" work. It helps get my name out there for paying clients. Doing good work regardless of pay is difficult to say the least but it gives you a standard that people will know you for. The downside of all this is you foster a reputation for being cheap...trust me its difficult to shake that rep. So there's two sied to this coin.

How have the clients you've gotten that way turned out? Good or bad? What have you done to help counter the "cheap" reputation?

 

[Hawk Teflon]

The question is "Is it getting your name out there to the right people, though?" Sure, people will see it, but mainly people checking out NPO's.

I've done my share of NPO work. If you believe in it, and you have the time to do it, then do it. But if it's that OR a job that pays money, do the other.

 

[keylight]

Depends on what other work I was doing at the time... and if I like the non profit.

I do much more free work than paid work. I'm usually looking for some kind of artistic reward. That said, I'm not supporting a family.

Would you prefer doing a low paying non-profit job for expenses and no fee, or for a fee? I know some people swear by taking no fee instead of a very small fee....

 

[Doc Bernard]

Okay, requesting another catagory on your poll.

O: The project has enough interest and potential for greater things, for me to get involved on a "no-pay or cost" basis.

Look, I still pick up gigs for either no cost, if local, or at-cost if distant. But I do have a criteria. Is this something that will assist Indie Arms in the future? Contacts, reel material? Been doing this since 2007, so....... I get a rush, and they get top notch support. But it has to be "worth it". I ask for the script and the appropriate credits prior to our involvement. If neither adds up to my standards, we decline. Simple.

 

[snowleopard]

Not really enough parameters. But I guess that's what turns polls into discussions.

If you have a project with literally zero money (and I include gear, you're shooting on old crap you borrowed), we're friends, and I trust and believe in you, I'll do it.

That situation doesn't come up that often though.

 

[Drew Ott]

Would you prefer doing a low paying non-profit job for expenses and no fee, or for a fee? I know some people swear by taking no fee instead of a very small fee....

There's a psychological element to it, yes. If you're doing something for absolutely no money, you feel more of an intrinsic reward. The second you get paid a little bit, the person getting paid feels like they're "even" instead of doing the company a favor. So yeah... it depends on the details, but I think I'd rather not get paid at all.

There's a TED talk about motivation that covers some of this. I will look around for it.

 

[Boncrek]

How have the clients you've gotten that way turned out? Good or bad? What have you done to help counter the "cheap" reputation?

*Sigh* it's a work in progress.
I have gotten well paying clients who take me on board based on the work I've done and by people who know me.
So linking with other professionals is key as well.
The cheap reputation is still there but not so much any more as I've started doing other work.
My biggest problem so far isnt a cheap reputation but lacj of integrity.
I tend to not speak with clients about all the pitfalls that may ensue and then create a problem when footage is subpar.
Being honest and upfront about whatever costs may be or whenever deadlines may be broken is what I have been struggling with.
And its been creating a different sort of reputation...much worse than cheap.
The nature of non profits is that they...well...dont make money like other organizations.
If you're really concerned about it you can actually not attach your name to a project.
That way you're selective in what work people will attribute to you.
If a wedding videographer is asked to do a one time music video he may do it but not put his name on the final product.
That way persons won't be calling him asking for a music video.

 

[Drew Ott]

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Very interesting video. It's a principle that low-budget producers should definitely consider. When you're asking somebody to work for $50, do you think you're even with them? The crew member working for $50 should still feel like they're being a good person for helping out the production.

It's definitely true in my own experience as a crew member. The productions where I was paid something tiny was when I was the least happy. It's a communication issue though. I think I would prefer to work for the $50 a day if the person paying me said, "Hey... this is all we can give you. We recognize you are still doing us a favor." This gets into social game theory, which as a concept makes me a little uncomfortable. The discomfort likely comes from the fact that it can so effectively be applied to any interaction. Interesting stuff.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Look, I was a bit harsh. Allow me to explain/expound on my thoughts.

I get inundated with requests to get involved in people's projects. I am cool with that. I have a good rep and we bust butt to give film-makers everything they need. But.....and a big one.......I run a business. If I had a choice, it would be a charity. But I have to eat and survive, just like everyone else, including my guys. I cannot just show up everyday on everyone's films for free.

So....I imposed a criteria. How would a free/low cost project help us? It is a cruel process, and one I am not really proud of, but if I want to survive, I have to use something to sift the "free" jobs out, because I have to pay my guys out of my own pocket.

This one cost me big time, but it will be worth it. All the tactical gear, weapons and uni's are mine. (LOL, I am center front row.) Hey, part of the agreement. All in all, according to the invoice, I provided over 1500.00 worth of gear for one day. And I wrote it off, based on discussions with the director and the script. And got another job in AZ based on this particular gig. As well as finding an important key to our company there. So, for me, it paid off. But that's not the everyday case. I have project's I do the facepalm on.

"What The Hell Have I Gotten Us Into?!?!"


But God help you if I find out you had money to pay me a nominal amount but decided it was better used in some other area, like extra and unnecessary copies of the script or a masuesse for your lead.

 

[mjmcneese]

My only issue with pro Bono work is that if the client has little or no money invested in the project, that usually correlates to them having little or no interest in giving me what I need to get the project done properly.

That said, I love doing what do, so as long as I had the time, and the client provided the resources needed, I'd do it.

 

[keylight]

There's a psychological element to it, yes. If you're doing something for absolutely no money, you feel more of an intrinsic reward. The second you get paid a little bit, the person getting paid feels like they're "even" instead of doing the company a favor. So yeah... it depends on the details, but I think I'd rather not get paid at all.

There's a TED talk about motivation that covers some of this. I will look around for it.

Good point. The other thing I suppose is that when you get paid a little, the client may start to feel like "you work for me" instead of "this guy's doing us a favor". Not taking a money (except for expenses) can help you to "manage" your client.

 

[keylight]

My biggest problem so far isnt a cheap reputation but lacj of integrity.

That's a pretty strong statement you're making about yourself. If you're budgeting out a video then you should be able to arrive at close to what it will cost to make, with enough added in for your overhead and profit of course. Always be up front with clients about the total price. If they change what they want along the way, let them know what the change will cost. And when you're all done with the work, if you find you went over budget through no fault of your client, then the best thing to do is to eat it yourself. And next time, give yourself a little more buffer.

As for subpar footage, that'll change with time and experience. But certainly you should price your services according to the quality you can offer. Showing them samples (a demo reel) is a great way to help set their expectations.

 

[Doc Bernard]

My biggest problem so far isnt a cheap reputation but lacj of integrity.

That is a HUGE problem! Integrity is everything! Is it a lack of knowledge about your integrity, or a lack of integrity? Man, translation sucks.

 

[keylight]

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Very interesting video. It's a principle that low-budget producers should definitely consider. When you're asking somebody to work for $50, do you think you're even with them? The crew member working for $50 should still feel like they're being a good person for helping out the production.

It's definitely true in my own experience as a crew member. The productions where I was paid something tiny was when I was the least happy. It's a communication issue though. I think I would prefer to work for the $50 a day if the person paying me said, "Hey... this is all we can give you. We recognize you are still doing us a favor." This gets into social game theory, which as a concept makes me a little uncomfortable. The discomfort likely comes from the fact that it can so effectively be applied to any interaction. Interesting stuff.

Link worked, but video wouldn't play for me. But I found it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y (at least I assume it's the same).

Very interesting talk. The idea of autonomy, mastery, and purpose kind of applies to a lot of us on this site I imagine.

 

[ullanta]

I hate to say it, and there are some exceptions, but in general I've been treated much better by people who pay me my full fee than by people who I've done favors for. The ones who pay most are most grateful, because they actually care the most about getting a good product; the ones I've let talk me down too far, or into doing sonething for free, have treated me like I was worth what they paid. I've spent hours preparing and driving to gigs that were a favor to be told, "oh, we decided not to shoot tonight."
etc. There have been times when I've been given a sob story that led me to lower my price far too low, only to fond out that money has been spent lavishly on every other aspect of the gig, including gifts for all those who have been so helpful and generous with their time… except the sucker who didn't charge full price. I find that people who care will find a way to pay, or at least find creative ways to barter. I have happily on occasion given discounts after the fact - or additional services - on situations where it was clear that people really cared and were struggling. That seems to work better. But taking free or supercheap gigs… I have gotten pretty turned off to.

There are exceptions, and I take such gigs more often than I should, with hope in my heart. I have had some good experiences, most of them centered around DVXUSER, and I've requested such help as well (thanks Doc!) in ways that I hope worked out well for everyone.

As a new parent, of course, with a lot less time and a lot more need for money, I think I'll be much less likely to pro bonoize for a while!

Keep in mind, a "loss leader" is a valid concept, and has worked well for me…. But investigate well what the expected payoff will be!

 

[KyleProhaska]

My wife has a baby on the way and the days of taking any freebies are over. I realize not everybody on the forum has those responsibilities but it definitely plays a factor.

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

In my experience, a lot of non profit work usually leads to more non profit work. But we have made some decent contacts and built up the 'ol reel quite a bit.