Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

even if it comes out in summer it will be another half year before they bring the "A" version. yes, the DVXplain was good but the DVX"A" was the real deal. it will be similar this time. same with SONY and others. they shoot a product to be on the market, then they polish it. and with P2-prices being the dealbreaker for most of us any day you can wait is money saved, but the question is: can you AFFORD to WAIT?
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=15#16 date=02/15/05 at 12:31:17]
"Common reasoning" would say, "how badly do you want 24p for the project you have coming up?"
[/quote]

He told he has a camera which he can use for the present project.

A few hundred dollar loss? In an whole year of use, do u expect a used DVX100A to cost $2500?

I just wanted him to think about his needs.. thats all... With the PMA coming, I wudnt advice anyone to go buy a Digital SLR till u see what Nikon/Canon has up their sleeve...
the same wud hold true for NAB.... wait till that time, and let the smoke settle.... ... if Pana tells us HDX is not available till Winter 2005 or if its $9,999, then base ur decision on that
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

I just looked on Ebay and there are about 100 DVX100a for sale. Probably will be able to get a good deal on one if the P2HD turns out to be something good.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=redindian link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=15#21 date=02/15/05 at 14:22:27]

He told he has a camera which he can use for the present project.

A few hundred dollar loss? In an whole year of use, do u expect a used DVX100A to cost $2500?

I just wanted him to think about his needs.. thats all... With the PMA coming, I wudnt advice anyone to go buy a Digital SLR till u see what Nikon/Canon has up their sleeve...
the same wud hold true for NAB.... wait till that time, and let the smoke settle.... ... if Pana tells us HDX is not available till Winter 2005 or if its $9,999, then base ur decision on that


[/quote]

I think an original DVX (no A) still sells for $1900 . . . after two years. That’s $67/mo depreciation based on a $3500 original price. The 100A is worth a little more, so six months from now? $2500? Sure. New ones will still be $3300 or so. It would not be unreasonable to pull in $2900 for one. Which would be about in line with a $67/mo depreciation. Now, compare that to $150/day rental.

I *know* what you said. If he’s happy with his camera, then he can wait. But what I take umbrance with is a) the idea that he’d be “falling for” something if he bought a DVX now, and b) that to buy one – that the things we were posting – is “against all common reason.” There are MANY reasonable arguments for buying a DVX now, many benefits that he won’t have with his current cam, so it’s up to HIM to determine if the added benefit of the DVX’s features and what he can take advantage of are worth it. And, he had to make his decision TODAY, so he said, not two months from now when the price and specs of the new cam will be made public.

So, let’s be careful how we phrase things.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=redindian link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=15#15 date=02/15/05 at 12:18:02]Why would u still buy a DVX100A today??? When you said you can use your old camera to shoot your short for the time being...!


Dont fall for it...!!
everyone's advice is contrary to common reasoning... but its a internet forum... read everything but choose yourself ... 3K is big money! Most of the replies are from people who already own one..! Dont *create* a need unless you really need it. Maybe you dont shoot HD right away... but if its within arms reach - why not ?

Sit back and think. A new camera has been announced to succeed/replace a old camera! why would you buy it unless you know the next camera is 10k or it plainly sucks...
but if the camera turns out to be a gem at $5,999/$4,999 ...and has future-proof (2years:) tech - then you will be kicking urself daily...!

yes, DVX100A is a fine camera - but you owe it to userself to fully explore whats in store in the next version!
yes, a new version wont make current camera shoot bad - but when u can afford to wait a bit longer - why cant u wait ?

good luck!..
[/quote]

Yeah, and then when he is ready to buy the P2 cam something greater will be on the horizon, and you're logic could easy apply then too. And the poor guy would be chasing his tail into infinity. The right time to buy is when you need it, technology will always be andvancing.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Would you still buy a DVX100A today?


I'm more focused on writing the ultimate script then worrying about what camera to use. By the time I get this script done, HDX will be definetly be the choice or any other neat camera that comes out then. :)
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

you are right that technology is always changing but most of the time its small incremental change, but sometime just sometime a big change in technology happens thats different altogether because it means we are entering a new phase.

Think about it from the first ever miniDV to DVX100 there have been lots of cams inbetween BUT they have all been small changes (relatively speaking) if this HDX is indeed true then this will represent a BIG change. since big changes happens rarely nows a good time to buy into this "revolution".....

If this cam is vapour ware then the Z1 will end up stealing the limelight.

what the hell, one thing is for sure the gates of prosumer HD have been unleashed and theres no turning back.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

(referencing why someone shouldn't buy the tool they need now) I don't understand this line of reasoning at all... I mean, is the camera a toy to play with?  Or a business tool? It could be either, certainly, but if it's a tool for use in business, the right time to buy it is when you need it.

Let's assume the new camera comes out in two months.  Not only "announced" at NAB, but actually shipping.  Would it have been foolish to buy a DVX100A now?

IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU DO WITH THE CAMERA BETWEEN NOW AND THEN.

If you plan to play around with it like it's a toy, then yes, if you intend to get the new camera, you will probably wish you'd waited.

If you intend to put it to work (shooting weddings, conventions, whatever) and you have skills, or use it to develop skills, you could easily make back the cost of the camera completely, before NAB.  Wedding shooters get somewhere between $800 and $3000 for shooting a wedding in this town.  Even if you got $800 each... do one each weekend for a month -- the DVX is now paid for.  Do one each weekend for the next month, sell your DVX for $2,500 -- and voila -- your new HDX is already paid for.  That won't happen if you "wait".

Or if you live in a big-enough town, shoot convention/event coverage.  I've been getting $850/day for convention work, and I know that shooters shooting high-school kids sports demos (to impress college coaches) have been charging $85/hour.  It doesn't take long before that big-money $3500 purchase is now paid-in-full.  

If you have a need for it now, or can put it to work now, get it now and put it to work.  If you aren't going to put it to work, why get it at all, much less getting it now?
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Barry, just curious about how you shoot conventions and other events. Do you use a steady cam?
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Depends. I've done several where I use the Tiffen Steadi-Stick (to keep the weight off my back), Frezzi mini-fill with softbox, and if there's audio, a wireless handheld mic for the interviewer.

Most of these type of jobs are either a) get general b-roll of the convention, so we can edit it together later for making a promotional video to make people want to exhibit at our convention, or b) shoot the booths themselves, folwing around an interviewer for news-style coverage.

On bigger-budget shoots we'll bring along a cart with a tripod and a softbox and an audio guy.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=Zim link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=15#22 date=02/15/05 at 14:39:15]I just looked on Ebay and there are about 100 DVX100a for sale. Probably will be able to get a good deal on one if the P2HD turns out to be something  good. [/quote]

And most of thse are gray market. None will have the Magic Bullet, DVX Book or qualify for the rebate. And worst of all, will not have a Panasonic US warranty.

Best,

Jan
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Thanks all for your advice. I'm buying the DVX. The 24p film gamma look I'll get on the shoot this weekend will likely earn me some business in the future. Maybe my NEXT camera will be HD. By then the medium will be a little more developed.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

I bought my DVX100a in Nov. I have no regrets even though the HDFX1 came out... HD... oooooh. wowww...

Well... It's Feb now... rumors of the new Panny is coming out... and I would STILL buy another DVX100a. Why?

Overall accessory costs. Won't need to buy a P2. Accessories for the DVX are more abundant. You'll need to buy more/bigger harddrives if you go HD... And the world is still holding strong to DVD. HD-DVD... Blue Ray... I'm not going anywhere with my DVX100a until one of those 2 will be the official new format to replace DVD we have today. I like being able to play MiniDV tapes in any MiniDV playback source available. Can even play it back on a cheapo $200 MiniDV camera.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to. I don't plan on doing HD work for a while either. My main concern is if I'm going to order the thing now and then watch its price plummet in the next 2 months or so. BUT...too late! Ordered and on its way from EVS and I'm very happy with my decision. Even if it plummets, it's still a great deal w/ the rebate, Barry's book, Magic Bullet. I'll just close my eyes to the new price and pretend a new Panny cam was never announced. The DVX is still the latest and greatest. ;)
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

i already mentioned "we could soon make this in HDV or something like it" and my customers eyes started sparkling. then i told him it would cost double at least and he was fine with what we offered now......as long as the tools are brandnew and kinda in development they will cost big bucks. SD and the DVX (or other SD cams of course) are a solid toolset for TV, DVD, web etc right now.

the future will be online. games, films, shows all will be streaming, but at the moment i do not see anyone streaming an actionflick. here in europe we are faraway from a decent HD delivery format. i asked an editor who buys footage off me from our national TV-network and he didn´t even know HD will be 16:9. he said: is that so. well then we won´t air it in the news- or sports-section. only dedicated programmeslots will be HD/16:9.

now with that conservative approach from the networks we will see stuff like the olympics and some natureshows as HD. but in general i do not see an HD market in the next 3 years. hold onto your DVXs!!!!
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=alpi69 link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=30#35 date=02/17/05 at 06:49:12]i already mentioned "we could soon make this in HDV or something like it" and my customers eyes started sparkling. then i told him it would cost double at least and he was fine with what we offered now....[/quote]

Well it would seem that it depends on how you market it cause in theory it doesn't need to "cost double"... it's on MiniDV so really it's the same cost. (ya I know there are other expensese and no HD disc medium at the moment) If you want to give the person the impression that it "costs more" cause it's "better/future proof" then that choice is up to you... and wether you choose to do that is neither right nor wrong.

I'll play the HD push role once again here as I prepare to get my post quoted to death after it's done...

There is a lot of talk about 24P and how "24P or death" and whatnot... which I guess I get if you are an indie and on a very tight budget doing your own film.  Mike at HD for indies has been doing a lot of testing with a lot of cams.  What I like about his style is that he reports the facts relatively biased free trying to figure out the best dollar for dollar solution based on need/requirement.  While other may say 24P is the only way to go... I believe that to be a somewhat close minded statement... here's why...

If any camera you buy is a toy then fine this debates won't interest you and you'll be happy either way and if you have a lot of money then just go buy the F900 and laugh at everyone here.  ;D  For the rest of us, considering HD vs SD at the moment is a big decision.  I recently purchased the FX1 over the DVX and it was a big decision. (canon or JVC wasn't even an option for me) What seems to be talked about less that I feel is equally important is how to you make 24P look like 60i?  You don't.  Yes, I agree... NTSC is lame but it's the way it is in North America and people have become accustomed to the "video look".  I did a test where I hooked up my FX1 to get peoples reaction in HDV 60i, CF24 and CF30 vs some DVX footage shot in 60i and in 24p... I did both on my 4x3 tv and then again both on my 16x9 HDTV.  People were mostly taken back with the clarity of the HD picture from the FX1.  There is no science to this test... it was mostly people who did work in advertising and with electronic media...

When I switch the DVX from 60i to 24P the comment was "it went from looking like video to flim".

When I switch the FX from 60i to CF24 the comment was "it went from looking like video to film"....  60i to CF30 same comment.

FX1 and DVX 30 modes to 24 modes... "24 looks like more stobe like and kind of jagged..." most noticed more on pans obviously and less if it was static with just people walking in font or whatever...

Also turn on the Gamma setting on both and the reaction was image was more "film like and more pleasing to the eye with gammas on with both cams"...

The big clintcher was the HDV on the HD set.  While the panasoinc looks good it doesn't comapare.  However the sony did seem to compare and people didn't really notice much difference when both cams were on a 4x3 set.

My humble, non confrontation, yet very different opinion from most here.. ;D is that the word "indie filmaker"  has a lot of definitions.  I feel I don't really fall into this category as I do produce commercial and elements for the internet, NTSC TV and general promotion video for corporate clients, rather than trying to make movie to been seen or be discovered.  I'm not knockin' the indie scene whatsoever but my perspective is I need to make money as well as a quality product that I feel comfortable tagging my name to.  With HD now available at a fraction of the cost that is was a year ago, for me the DVX didn't make sense.  I can emulate the FX1 to give a "flim like" product.  Yes, if you stick a magnifiying glass to it it's not 24P, but if you think that that feature is the only make or break feature that makes something look like film... then I think that is where everyone does injustice to the DVX.  It has alot more to offer than just 24P... it has 24PA but that seems to be discussed less for some reason though you think it would be the opposite for indies hoping to take the final for a filmout.
For me shooting HD 60i leaves the door open to cater to NTSC video look as well as "hacking it up" to emulate a film look... and lets not deny up rez possibility... If i had the chance to have all the projects I shot on VHS, even 4x3 DV converted to 16x9 HD with the click of a button... what is so wrong with that?

I think the 24P vs HD debate is somewhat over rated.  The DVX vs FX1 offers much more than that like Phantom power, XLR in, a manual zoom rocker!!! (this was almost the clincher for me vs FX1 seuto servo)... among it's cinegamma and other settings... the manual control of the DVX in general was almost enough for me to say no to the Sony... however I understand and have lived with my decision and I am glad a bought my FX1.

Is the DVX outdated?  Yes, as far as current technology.  Does that mean it's not capable... no.  However with a potential HD from panasonic not too far away, unless you buy a camera (sub 5000 g's) more than twice a year... waiting may not be a bad idea.  Renting a DVX might be a better option.  I would not buy a DVX today... but again... only one mans opnion with his own needs in mind.
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=HDV;num=1108483226;start=30#36 date=02/17/05 at 16:25:02]I think the 24P vs HD debate is somewhat over rated.  The DVX vs FX1 offers much more than that like Phantom power, XLR in, a manual zoom rocker!!![/quote]

24p would be compared to Cineframe 24 or 60i, in which case true 24p is more pleasing and accurate to emulating film cadence.

SD would be compared to HD, in which HD is definitely higher resolution, which equals closer to what indie filmmakers want. 1080i can be compared to 720p, which most indies would prefer 24p HD over interlaced. I'm sure we would all prefer 1080 24p that could actually be edited on a home computer. Soon my pretties.

Finally DVCPRO-HD could be compared to HDV, and from everything I've read about the two, there seems to be no contest. ;)
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

video_guy,
i basically agree. i am producing similar content to yours (PAL 4:3 TV programmes, commercials, infochannelcontent and only sometimes a short). in my calculation output from the new Pana will cost double: the cam and its accessories, whatever way you turn it your editing system will not handle it as easy as miniDV. i can now do 6 layers of colorcorrected footage in a composite in realtime (using Liqid Edition 6) and the first competitor for this is Canopus with a $ 5000 solution and then comes Liquid HD which costs 12000 turnkey. then add the costs for extra P2 cards, for a RAID-5 to be safe with these P2 cards and then you need more harddisks or any other backupsystem (tapes again???) to keep your footage if you have no tapes anymore. now add a HD monitor and a deck that records in a format that is used by the netwroks you deliver to and you will be near 20000 until you have a professional setup in HD.  
in professional i mean:
- my editing system is absolutely stable whatever i do
- i can work like i do now: make multi-layer composites in realtime with no lag etc
-i can come back 6 months after and in a short time re-edit the film according to the clients wishes.
those are the features i need for my work. HD will need tons of bandwidth more even when they keep it at 40Mbs.
here is a quote from dave_s on creative cow i found just now:
"On my system (AMD 64 3500+ with ATI 9600 256Mb video) I can't use any preview any RT transitions between HDV 1080i clips; the frame rate drops to 1 fps. I think it's my video card that's the limiting factor here. I can use RT filters and have successfully done a pan-and-scan downcovert with RT preview. A higher-end video card might let me use 2 HDV streams with RT transitions but that's still questionable."
so HDV needs a lot of power if a 3500AMD plays at 1fps only. the resolution simply offers so many pixels regardless of the format they squeeze it into. so to have a workable solution you need a dual-xean 3,6GHz box with a $ 500 grafxcard etc.....it adds up like my wife´s shopping list...
your 60i vs 24p point is correct IMO. people do not care what it is. they see it and judge it. if it is 60i and a great story they will prefer it to 24p and a lame story. content is priority #1. but of course if you can make a film in 24p with a great story even better, but no one will talk about the framerate (other than us here  ;D )
 
Re: Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

As a non-movie making videographer, I think that this is where 720 60p/50p will come in handy for many of us doing corporate, broadcast, and event shoots. For me, 24p just happens to be a bonus for the times when it will be needed. I'm no interlace lover, I prefer progressive by far; although 24p sometimes nags me for it's motion judder, I think for my uses, 60p will be a great boon.

I wonder though, if the need arises, can 60p be effectively converted to 24p? Because I know that 30p to 24p is not easy to achieve.
 
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