MOS camera sensors are made of photodiode arrays, and are designed for low noise, linear response, and extremely consistent yields. (That's why bad pixels almost never show up in camera sensors.) Unlike solar panels, which are designed for maximum quantum efficiency without regard for fidelity, camera sensors are designed to measure light intensity rather than generate electrical power. As with transistors, the semiconductor junctions in photodiodes do not wear out in normal use and are not degraded by exposure to sunlight.
Would the GH2 band be acceptable on the AF100?
- Thread starter DvxHerb
- Start date
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
well damn. i think some of you owe the thread starter an apology then ;-)
the expert hath spoken!
though i'll be honest most of that paragraph sounded like quantum physics to me but I think I managed to piece it together LOL
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
lpowell just out of curiosity. i HAVE heard definitively that lasers like from those rave/techno parties that shoot around, if they shoot into a DSLR sensor it will destroy the sensor immediately. can you explain this and why this occurs??
so if i take one of those pen laser pointers and flash it into my GH1 it will annihilate the sensor?
so if i take one of those pen laser pointers and flash it into my GH1 it will annihilate the sensor?
I'd think a laser capable of damaging a camera sensor would be hazardous to your eyesight as well. Do you know of any documented cases like this?
While excessive heat can damage a photosensor, it's not the sensor itself that generates the majority of heat inside a camera. The heat comes from the power dissipation of the camera's internal circuitry.
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My very first sentence said: "I know I am being somewhat incendiary"
As, Mr Green pointed out, I did not ask someone with an AF100 to do a similar test. I should have. And yes, as Barry inferred, I was trying to make a point to Panasonic, though I wouldn't call it embarrassing them.
Barry, how's this for irony: Earlier today I read the post in which you wrote about being attacked from all sides for your camera tests and observations. I thought: "Why would anyone jump all over Barry?" Little did I know that I'd be getting your dander up.
In all honesty, I walked outside around 8 a.m. turned the camera on, not changing the settings from the night before. I shot some footage of a cat in my driveway that looked good. I stood up and heard the squirrel. I saw the flare and decided to play with it. Simple. No nefarious intentions.
To further clarify my intentions, I sold my 7D earlier this week with the idea of doing the GH2 / AF100 combo. I love the form factor the GH2 offers. I like the image a lot. I'm considering buying the Olympus 14-35mm and 35-100mm lenses for it because they would also be great on the AF100. I've worked around the audio monitoring limitations willingly and successfully, realizing the GH2 is an SLR with HD video capabilities, not an HD camcorder. I get it. I am not pretending this camera is more than it is. So I am far from a hater.
However, the band issue exists in reasonable footage shot by other cameras. It is an issue. It can be worked around in most normal conditions. My example was unconventional and extreme.
As, Mr Green pointed out, I did not ask someone with an AF100 to do a similar test. I should have. And yes, as Barry inferred, I was trying to make a point to Panasonic, though I wouldn't call it embarrassing them.
Barry, how's this for irony: Earlier today I read the post in which you wrote about being attacked from all sides for your camera tests and observations. I thought: "Why would anyone jump all over Barry?" Little did I know that I'd be getting your dander up.
In all honesty, I walked outside around 8 a.m. turned the camera on, not changing the settings from the night before. I shot some footage of a cat in my driveway that looked good. I stood up and heard the squirrel. I saw the flare and decided to play with it. Simple. No nefarious intentions.
To further clarify my intentions, I sold my 7D earlier this week with the idea of doing the GH2 / AF100 combo. I love the form factor the GH2 offers. I like the image a lot. I'm considering buying the Olympus 14-35mm and 35-100mm lenses for it because they would also be great on the AF100. I've worked around the audio monitoring limitations willingly and successfully, realizing the GH2 is an SLR with HD video capabilities, not an HD camcorder. I get it. I am not pretending this camera is more than it is. So I am far from a hater.
However, the band issue exists in reasonable footage shot by other cameras. It is an issue. It can be worked around in most normal conditions. My example was unconventional and extreme.
All camera manufacturers warn about shooting directly into the sun. Ive never assumed that its because of the amount of light being dealt with by the photosites. Light though is generated by heat, and when that heat is focused on an object for a length of time (you do the math on how much heat at how long is required to melt the sensor), it can melt components within the sensor itself - or just get it beyond its operating temp and cause damage.
So sunlight being generated by heat and focused to a point for long enough can degrade it.
Ive never worried about it much though and have always shot the sun where I felt the need. Just try not to do it for too long.
So sunlight being generated by heat and focused to a point for long enough can degrade it.
Ive never worried about it much though and have always shot the sun where I felt the need. Just try not to do it for too long.
And finally again. I said it at the start of this thread and now Im saying it again - the gh2 sensor is NOT THE SAME AS AF100 and certainly the AF100 has a DSP that resembles nothing either the GH1 or GH2 have.
If someone wants to do this test and post results please feel free to do so.
If someone wants to do this test and post results please feel free to do so.
Noel,
I never said they had the same sensor. I asked if I should buy another camera from the same company that produced another camera that I and others had bought that has an issue that has yet to have been addressed by Panasonic. Clearly there is synergy between the two cameras, they share the same mount, record to the same format and compression. It is not unreasonable to think of the two cameras as part of a tandem unit.
I never said they had the same sensor. I asked if I should buy another camera from the same company that produced another camera that I and others had bought that has an issue that has yet to have been addressed by Panasonic. Clearly there is synergy between the two cameras, they share the same mount, record to the same format and compression. It is not unreasonable to think of the two cameras as part of a tandem unit.
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Paul Vicente
Well-known member
Phillip Bloom shot the sun in his 'Hirano San' film. No problems there.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
No, you didn't - but another user did, and Noel was responding to that post.
Seven pages in and this thread has little to nothing to do with the AF100 - this is a GH2 issue that is being discussed.
Different sensor, different circuitry, different camera made by a completely different division -
We're going to move this the the GH section of the forum where members who are using the same camera may be more likely to see it and help you with whatever answers you're looking for.
Justyn
Veteran
I believe it is the standard defacto part to put it into the manual and to be conscientious about not shooting into the sun for periods of time. I know that back in the day you could burn an image into a CCD sensor if left on it for too long.. especially a bright/contrasty source. We had a camera back in college that had a ghosted image of a window permanently burned into the sensor so it was on everything we shot....
I do like the purple color but the band isn't great... I wonder if it would be produced again if you had a Fader ND on it or shot at a lower ISO.... or with a faster lens...
I do like the purple color but the band isn't great... I wonder if it would be produced again if you had a Fader ND on it or shot at a lower ISO.... or with a faster lens...
dan.carter
Well-known member
I missed the memo. I didn't realize every bad move I make with my gear can be blamed on the manufacturer.
farfromsubtle
Well-known member
Banding shows at low ISOs too. Just sayin'.
Y'know I think the fact people are jumping on the OP is ridiculous.
Ive shot against the sun with my GF/GH1 many many times and do not get any bands at all (and as I see it a benefit of mos sensors vs my previous ccd camera) ....you know what sometimes its unavoidable on a hot sunny day.
heres some holiday/home footage of mine...if you see the last shot with the seagull Im shooting right at the sun...no issues....both from non hacked at the time GH1.
or here with a cheap uncoated cctv f0.95 lense (raw as it gets)...shot the sun DIRECTLY through trees.
So if someone like to elaborate why a banding would be common with a shot like this with MOS sensors when clearly it isnt.
And yes my GH1 still works even though I regularly shoot at the sun ;-)
There is a clear problem there with the sensor... dont get it with GH1 and you should not get it with GH2 nor be happy about it....the footage does not look like hes forced the sensor into submission....It started to band almost immedietley as soon as the sun hit.
The guy just wants to know from someone if he might get the same issue with the AF100.
Ive shot against the sun with my GF/GH1 many many times and do not get any bands at all (and as I see it a benefit of mos sensors vs my previous ccd camera) ....you know what sometimes its unavoidable on a hot sunny day.
heres some holiday/home footage of mine...if you see the last shot with the seagull Im shooting right at the sun...no issues....both from non hacked at the time GH1.
or here with a cheap uncoated cctv f0.95 lense (raw as it gets)...shot the sun DIRECTLY through trees.
So if someone like to elaborate why a banding would be common with a shot like this with MOS sensors when clearly it isnt.
And yes my GH1 still works even though I regularly shoot at the sun ;-)
There is a clear problem there with the sensor... dont get it with GH1 and you should not get it with GH2 nor be happy about it....the footage does not look like hes forced the sensor into submission....It started to band almost immedietley as soon as the sun hit.
The guy just wants to know from someone if he might get the same issue with the AF100.
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I know this is a GH2 issue, so technically I'm posting in the wrong forum, but this topic began here. I wanted to add 2 things.
First, this issue doesn't happen only when shooting the sun, but it can happen shooting any significantly bright object that overexposes.
Second, this problem is not unique to the GH2, but is an issue on the GH1 as well, only most users never shot at 800 ISO or higher on the GH1 because it looked crappy. Now that the GH2 looks great at 800 and 1600, many people are shooting at those ISOs and are noticing the problem. What I have yet to figure out is why I can also intentionally shoot a bare light bulb at 800 ISO, with the aperture wide open, and not get the banding problem.
In any case, I will simply shoot at lower ISOs most of the time, use good lighting when I can, and avoid super-bright sources when shooting at high ISOs.
Here's a video I made that compares the problem on a GH2 and a GH1. I placed a dark card over the right side of the lens so you can more easily make out the bands. I AM aware this is bad lighting and normally I wouldn't overexpose a lamp like this.
First, this issue doesn't happen only when shooting the sun, but it can happen shooting any significantly bright object that overexposes.
Second, this problem is not unique to the GH2, but is an issue on the GH1 as well, only most users never shot at 800 ISO or higher on the GH1 because it looked crappy. Now that the GH2 looks great at 800 and 1600, many people are shooting at those ISOs and are noticing the problem. What I have yet to figure out is why I can also intentionally shoot a bare light bulb at 800 ISO, with the aperture wide open, and not get the banding problem.
In any case, I will simply shoot at lower ISOs most of the time, use good lighting when I can, and avoid super-bright sources when shooting at high ISOs.
Here's a video I made that compares the problem on a GH2 and a GH1. I placed a dark card over the right side of the lens so you can more easily make out the bands. I AM aware this is bad lighting and normally I wouldn't overexpose a lamp like this.
Justyn
Veteran
does even seem to be worse on the GH1... Well on the original HVX which cost me 9100 bucks to get a working version.. there was horrible purple streaking when ever you shot a light... There was really none of that with the 3500 dollar HMC150... On both cameras I learned to deal.... but in so many ways the Gh2 trumps them both.. and even now the 150 will be used for things where the Gh2 is not good at.... Shooting sparklers and flashes is NOT something the GH2 does very well.... I'll have to post some footage on that, but for just running around with the kids it's incredible.... I love the darn thing already.....
Phil Rhodes
Well-known member
May I add a note of sanity.
Shooting straight into the sun is done all the time, and people get away with it. Nobody's claiming that it's risk-free, and there are youtube videos of (Canon) DSLRs being damaged by effects lasers, but if we couldn't shoot a sunset where would we be. Personally I would hesitate to lock off a shot like that for long periods, but it was moving around.
As to the dark banding, well, it's an artifact of extreme overexposure on that particular sensor. It isn't ideal, but it's probably not desperately unreasonable on a not-really-a-video-camera at this price point.
Are we concerned that they don't all do it, or something?
Shooting straight into the sun is done all the time, and people get away with it. Nobody's claiming that it's risk-free, and there are youtube videos of (Canon) DSLRs being damaged by effects lasers, but if we couldn't shoot a sunset where would we be. Personally I would hesitate to lock off a shot like that for long periods, but it was moving around.
As to the dark banding, well, it's an artifact of extreme overexposure on that particular sensor. It isn't ideal, but it's probably not desperately unreasonable on a not-really-a-video-camera at this price point.
Are we concerned that they don't all do it, or something?
Sorry, but how difficult a project do you think it would be to simulate a video of "laser damage" with an After Effects plug-in? If a camera's image sensor was actually damaged at a concert event in this manner, I'd be interested to see documentation of a Canon factory service report. Otherwise, I'd hesitate to categorize an anonymous YouTube video as an example of "a note of sanity".
I, too, was also trying to add a note of sanity, though it seems like sanity was already restored a few pages back. I just wanted to make sure people realized this issue wasn't GH2 specific. I think any time you crank the gain on a sensor (which is essentially what happens when you choose a high ISO), and blast extreme amounts of light into the lens, you're going to get visual problems.
At 400 ISO and below, it is a non-problem for the GH2. And 400 ISO or under is a reasonable setting for sunlit exteriors (though for shooting video you'll likely still need ND filters to keep your shutter at 1/50 or 1/60). I can still see a potential problem shooting moody interiors where daylit windows are supposed to "blow out". In order to get this effect at ISO400, you'll need a fast lens and lots of bounce or fill light. I don't see it as a problem, myself.
Remember the purple vertical lines we lived with on CCD cameras in the 90's when the sun or a bright light entered the frame? This isn't nearly as heinous as that.
I also find it funny that this visual aberration is considered a massive FAIL, but optical lens flares are really trendy (e.g. the anamorphic flares in JJ Abrams "Star Trek" and in just about any music video made these days). Martin Scorsese needs to shoot a film on the GH2 and utilize this sensor problem as a visual motif that symbolizes the main character's inner turmoil. Then everybody would want that amazing "GH2 Horizontal Banding"!