Would an Open Hardware Camera take off?

A

atarijedi

Well-known member
Hey Guys, just a question I'd like to throw out there.

Say there was an open hardware camera. It is literally just the hardware, with no software inside it. You press the power button, nothing happens.

It would be a camera body with an image sensor at a short-flange distance, 1 or 2 FPGAs for getting image data from the sensor and encoding, maybe dedicated a DSP for added features like AF/peaking/zebras/OSD, it would have a bunch of dials, buttons, switches, it would have a touchscreen LCD, some HDMI, SDI outputs, maybe even a built-in ND filter wheel, etc...

There is also the idea of making the major components modular, so if you wanted to upgrade the FPGA to something that was faster or had more "space", than you could swap them, like they are on a daughterboard or something.

The basic idea is that anyone with the knowledge could develop HDL/software for it.

Maybe offer RAW capabilities off the bat so you could use it out of the box, but nothing else beyond that, the rest would be up to the users/community.

Do you think people would actually buy it, or are people too lazy, and everyone would wait around for someone else to buy develop for it, but since everyone is doing it, no one would do it.

I mean, it wouldn't exactly be cheap, but for parts costs only, I could definitely see something like this, with an APS-C sized sensor, coming in under $2000, most likely even under $1500. But I can't say until I find out what the image sensor prices will be.

What do you guys think? Good idea? Bad idea?
 
Apertus Axiom?

http://apertus.org/en/axiom

And for the record, I think it's a great idea.

Now just the only problem: getting the part prices down and the quality up!

If you know anyone with, like, a spare whole CMOS fab, that would rock. I agree that the costs would not be high per sensor but at the moment most of the people making the sensors seem to put quite a high price on APS-C size silicon, probably because they are recouping investment / fab / development costs.

So I fear that an open source cam will be more expensive than $2000 right now.

But the Elphel is pretty cheap?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
bruceallen said:
Apertus Axiom?

http://apertus.org/en/axiom

And for the record, I think it's a great idea.

Now just the only problem: getting the part prices down and the quality up!

If you know anyone with, like, a spare whole CMOS fab, that would rock. I agree that the costs would not be high per sensor but at the moment most of the people making the sensors seem to put quite a high price on APS-C size silicon, probably because they are recouping investment / fab / development costs.

So I fear that an open source cam will be more expensive than $2000 right now.

But the Elphel is pretty cheap?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

I know about the Axiom, but it isn't an open hardware camera. It is simply a camera head that outputs RAW DNG. You will still need a computer to connect to it to control it, like the Elphel. As for the Elphel, it is also not an open hardware camera, and it only uses a 1/2.5" sensor.

As I said, for everything but the image sensor, I could probably get it down to between $1000 and $1200, maybe even lower. I am hoping the image sensor price, for the sensor I want to use, would be below $500 per unit. But if not, I could always fall back on some 4/3" and 1" sensors I have seen that are also pretty awesome. I found a source for the image sensor which I believe is the one used in the BMCC.
 
I have been working on a camera design for a few months and it is finally starting to settle close to some of the ideas listed above. The idea works like this:

1. take a machine vision camera, frame grabber, custom build computer, and touchscreen monitor and mount them in an enclosure built for the system.
2. the camera has a nikon mount but I will remove that and mount the camera in the enclosure in a way that allows me to throw any of the mounts (non electronic) made for the RED EPIC on the front of the camera.
3. Power supply made for automotive PC's will attach to Broadcast style v mount batteries.
4. Camera controlled using software loaded to PC supplied by camera company using touch screen monitor
5. Raw files are captured to an internal raid of SSD's
6. Offload files by plugging in bus powered USB3 drive
7. Transcode raw bayer files to cineform RAW
8. Delete originals
9. Shoot some more

My initial design will be close to full frame 32.4x24.5 (3:2) at 5120x3840 30fps. I will be able to increase fps by capturing a smaller area of the sensor (controlled in camera) which will also allow me to shoot in super 35mm format if I wish that will offer 3889x2916 resolution. I will likely also to experiments with pixel binning to increase sensitivity. I will be writing a blog about my progress and when its done I will provide a parts list for those who are interested. I will also be getting a custom enclosure made by a photography focused machinist who has made custom parts for me in the past. If this all works I'm sure other people can pay to have the same design made.

Based on my initial estimates the total cost for this camera will come to around $9000. That figure might end up being more but I am not selling this so I don't have to worry about failing to match expected prices and dissappointing thousands of people cough red failed to bring scarlet 3k for 3k and then tried to cover by saying its not professional even though current scarlets can only do 120fps at less than 720p cough cough cough
 
Its not available until January so I'm not 100% on the price but I've been given estimates. Also, the $9000 is not for the camera head its for the entire project
 
I was wondering who the manufacturer is, I have looked at all the major companies, Adimec, Teledyne, Baumer, Basler, Lumenera, AVT, Point Grey, Mikrotron, and JAI. None of them have a camera with a larger than 4/3" sensor that can do 30fps, for less than $8000.

The only full frame industrial camera that I know about, which can hit 30fps, is the Adimec Sapphire, and considering the sensor costs something like $5000 on its own, I can't see the camera being less than $9000.
 
I am playing it close to the chest for now because the camera isnt officially out yet but the one I am speaking of has a price of $2600 USD for quantities under 50 units so I'm hoping this camera will come in around the $5000 mark.
 
Why would you keep it a secret, unless you intent on selling it as a product? Then again, I don't know many manufacturers which would allow this with an industrial camera product.

That said, given the specs you listed. You are talking about a camera which uses the relatively new CMOSIS CMV20000 image sensor. That sensor costs about €4000 on its own. The only camera that I know of currently, which is going to be using that sensor, is the LOT-oriel FCcmv20k, is that the camera?
 
atarijedi said:
Why would you keep it a secret, unless you intent on selling it as a product? Then again, I don't know many manufacturers which would allow this with an industrial camera product.

That said, given the specs you listed. You are talking about a camera which uses the relatively new CMOSIS CMV20000 image sensor. That sensor costs about €4000 on its own. The only camera that I know of currently, which is going to be using that sensor, is the LOT-oriel FCcmv20k, is that the camera?
Click to expand...

its not lot-oriel. I actually tried to speak with them and they wouldnt return my emails and the US headquarters for the company in san diego was no help at all. You are correct about the sensor but wrong about the price. I was given a quote that was significantly lower than what you are saying.

Please email me at peter@skibovision.com so we can talk more
 
I know this thread is already inactive for some time but since nobody questioned the following sentence:

I know about the Axiom, but it isn't an open hardware camera. It is simply a camera head that outputs RAW DNG. You will still need a computer to connect to it to control it, like the Elphel. As for the Elphel, it is also not an open hardware camera, and it only uses a 1/2.5" sensor.
Click to expand...

I do so now!

What gave you the impression that they are NOT open hardware?
Also I am interested to learn what "open hardware" means for you if those do not meet the term for you.
 
Sebastian Pichelhofer said:
I know this thread is already inactive for some time but since nobody questioned the following sentence:



I do so now!

What gave you the impression that they are NOT open hardware?
Also I am interested to learn what "open hardware" means for you if those do not meet the term for you.
Click to expand...

Open hardware would be providing schematics, HDL source, letting people modifying the hardware themselves. Making the output system modular, so we wouldn't have to rely on using 3G-SDI, but could use whatever could be programmed, be it USB3, Thunderbolt, 6G-SDI, eSATA, etc...

It would also include using a flange mount with the most extensibility, and that is currently the E-mount from Sony.

What they are selling is pretty locked down in terms of hardware. Which is why they never purported it to be open hardware, only open source.
 
atarijedi said:
Open hardware would be providing schematics, HDL source, letting people modifying the hardware themselves. Making the output system modular, so we wouldn't have to rely on using 3G-SDI, but could use whatever could be programmed, be it USB3, Thunderbolt, 6G-SDI, eSATA, etc...
Click to expand...


Here are all the sources files for hardware/pcbs: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Elphel_camera_parts
Here are the HDL sources: http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/elphel/elphel353-8.0/fpga/

It would also include using a flange mount with the most extensibility, and that is currently the E-mount from Sony.
Click to expand...

Uhm, the Sony E-mount is a proprietary standard and has no place in open hardware....

What they are selling is pretty locked down in terms of hardware. Which is why they never purported it to be open hardware, only open source.
Click to expand...

Strange that you got that impression, on top of the official Elphel website http://www3.elphel.com/index.php it says "Elphel Inc. - Imaging solutions with Free software and open hardware" so they carry "open hardware" in their business subheader.
 
Sebastian Pichelhofer said:
Here are all the sources files for hardware/pcbs: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Elphel_camera_parts
Here are the HDL sources: http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/elphel/elphel353-8.0/fpga/



Uhm, the Sony E-mount is a proprietary standard and has no place in open hardware....



Strange that you got that impression, on top of the official Elphel website http://www3.elphel.com/index.php it says "Elphel Inc. - Imaging solutions with Free software and open hardware" so they carry "open hardware" in their business subheader.
Click to expand...

Elphel is a separate company, and has nothing to do with Apertus. The Apertus group used one of the Elphel cameras for its first open source project. But they aren't connected.

As for the E-mount, I used it as an example for a large sensor mount that sits close to the sensor. Using F-mount, a mount meant for cameras that have a mirror, is a dumb idea as it limits the number of other mounts that can be adapted. The guys at Kinefinity did the right thing and made their own custom mount with a very small flange distance. Same with Sony and their FX-mount (I think it is FX) for the F3/F5/F55.

That said, I could be wrong, but as the Apertus is going to be a product "projected to be under $10k", I can't see it being an open hardware platform. I don't blame them for it either.
 
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