Worth looking at again

I have been watching and waiting for Scarlet for years. I have kept going with rented and borrowed EX-1's which have been great. The F3 looks terrific but is just too high. I am going to buy the AF100. I think it's a beauty. I was in B&H two days ago at an editing station watching the test footage from Kyoto on an Avid monitor. It's beautiful. This camera does everything I need to do right right now and it's coming out next month and it's less than $5k. Sign me up. I'm pumped. I'm sure the Scarlet S35 will be great and when it lands, I'll consider it again then. I've got projects to shoot and I need a camera. For this money, it's a no brainer for me
 
I wish the talk about what the camera can't do would stop. I really don't understand why people are so consumed over the "missing" capabilities and features of a $5k camera. It also really baffles me why so many people think the camera needs to have those features. Keep in mind that these are features that didn't exist that long ago and no one had problems making movies before.. Like someone said above, it's not about the features, specs, or technicalities of the camera. Put a Red in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing and you'll get terrible footage. Put an iPhone 4 in the hands of a professional working DP like Darius Khondji (I'm using him because he's one of my favorites) and you'll get some amazing footage. It's not the camera, it's the person operating it and the lighting. You get the best camera you can afford and do the best with what you have in front of you.

Try an experiment. Go stand outside the movie theater and ask people walking out what they think the movie they just saw was shot on. Most of them won't have a clue. Then ask if they care what it was shot on. Most won't care. Ask them what they look for when they go see a movie. Most, if not all, will say they want to be entertained by a good story. Some may also say they want good acting, want to laugh, etc., etc., etc... but it all still comes down to the story. The story attracts the good actors and the entertainment factor of the movie. Bottom line, audiences don't care about the camera, the lens, the 4:2:2, or any of that other stuff. They want a good story and want to be entertained.

So let's stop comparing a $5k camera to a $15k or $20k camera, and start talking about all the cool features that are included in the AF100 and the things we can accomplish with it that we couldn't accomplish before with the HVX200 or HMC150 or other cameras, or how little more it costs than a 5DmkII, 7D, or GH1/13/2 to accomplish those things.

And the talk of Scarlet? Please... you really think Red is focused on Scarlet at all right now? They're barely getting Epic out the door so it will probably be at least a year before they get Scarlet out, if they even get it out at all at this point.
 
On my next short, I'm going to be shooting film.

Seriously, people. You're complaining about what a camera can or cannot do? Griping that for $5,000 it doesn't do this or that? Pick up a film camera. Get a good vintage 16mm camera like a CP16/R or GSMO or Eclair. It has an on and off switch. If you're lucky, it may (but not always) will have a frame rate setting. And that's it. That's pretty much the complete list of things the camera does.

Seems like Mike and Kyle and I are all hitting on a theme at the same time, but ... yeah, enough is enough. You don't know how good you've got it.

Reminds me of this commercial:

:thumbsup:
 
LOL

Anyways, I still would like to see what 4:4:2 AF100 footage looks on a big screen or after a film out.

I have a feature lined up for next year and I don't know if we should make an effort to shoot RED MX (and by that have less shooting days, etc) or we just shoot on the 100.
 
Barry thanks for the laugh.

I spent the entire day yesterday playing, shooting using the AF100 (cheers Rob and Meg chan). The only thing I cannot believe is they are selling this camera for 5 thousand bucks.

Im going to start another thread and pop in a little clip later, but there was no one there that the camera could not impress. There was a rather reserved cinematographer there, nice gentleman, lectures at one of the biggest film schools here. I shoot some clips dropped them on a monitor and he looked rather impressed with the results. I think his exact comment was "nice".

Barry you said 10 1/2 stops - I say yeah easily. A few settings changes and I was able to get pleasing anything.

Other thread later.
 
This is great news.

I have to say I'm on team of those that weren't terribly impressed with the footage so far, but I know Panny usually doesn't disappoint.

Let's just get some Low Light/High ISO tests out there, please!
 
powervideo said:
I remember seeing the Star Wars Phantom Menace movie on 35mm which was shot on the F900 thinking it looked gaudawful, but my kids thought it looked great. :shocked:
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Just a nitpick, but Star Wars 1 was shot on film (the only prequel shot on film), with just one scene shot digitally...the scene where Quigon takes Anakin's blood to check for midichlorians.

Say it...NERD
 
Barry_Green said:
You don't know how good you've got it.
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You're right Barry, we don't. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I wanted more dynamic range or more image control from the AF100--not at all! As far as I'm concerned, the world's best camera is the Arri SRII: Super16 and the on/off switch, all you need. My favorite camera-teacher-koan involves the cinematographer who dismantled an Arri 535 in front of his stunned class as if it were an old jalopy. He held up the filmgate and said, "This is what records your image. That's all it does, it records. The lens makes the image appear."

The difference between you and me is that you have $5,000 to spend on the newest filmgate. I don't. I want the AF100 as much as you do, but realize that my next camera has to last me for 4-5 years. I'm just starting out. Forget resolution, the only reason I'm holding out for Red is image control--the first time I sat down at a Da Vinci and watched a colorist adjust my film it felt like alchemy, like ancient magic, I couldn't believe the amount of image control you get out of telecine. Then I experienced Red RAW. Not equivalent, but similar; the ability to flawlessly fine tune exposure and color weeks after your shoot is worth the wait for the S35.

Like others, I feel the AF-100 is actually underpriced for the amount of features it offers. My issue is that I think it's a perfect camera for right now, for this amazing transition from "video" to video that looks like film. The reason I'm still waiting and watching is because I need a camera that will outlast that transition, that will still be shooting when you and the other big kids have sold it and bought the next big thing.
 
Ryan, while I agree with everything you said and it's exactly what I want, you're gonna be waiting quite a bit for Scarlet S35.

Jannard just posted some new news about Epic. It will probably begin reaching people's hands in mid-2011.

Scarlet 2/3 will follow afterwards.

I wouldn't count on being able to buy Scarlet S35 before mid-2012.

RED has such a tendency of being late that I wouldn't rule out Scarlet S35 coming out in 2013.

Until then I expect to shoot so much material that I can't even begin to imagine.
 
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KyleProhaska said:
Just a nitpick, but Star Wars 1 was shot on film (the only prequel shot on film), with just one scene shot digitally...the scene where Quigon takes Anakin's blood to check for midichlorians. Say it...NERD
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oops I meant the second one. Not being a fan of the prequels I'm not even sure what the other two are called. But my young son who is a movie nut, prefers the original 70's/80s originals because in his word's, "they look more real."

Sorry slipping off-thread now...
 
Unfortunately, you're completely right. Though they swear it's February for the first production (non handmade) Epics, mid-2011 sounds more likely. They have to build an entire assembly line! And their goal is competing with the Alexa, not the AF-100, so the Scarlet is just sweeping up coin for them. I know it's going to be a long wait, but until my trusty GH-1 fails me, I can deal with her faults and save the money instead.

Again, can't emphasize enough how much I wish I could just buy the latest and greatest in low-budget cameras every time a new AF-100 comes out......

What I really look forward to doing is comparing my friend's AF-100 to the hacked GH-1 under studio-lit and exterior conditions, particularly with significant motion / color in frame. That might just persuade me.
 
Actually the Epic may reach people hands next month, or definitely in January, but he says that will be a handful. Actual production line models will be in February. Still, you'll be waiting a loooong time for the Scarlet. And Scarlet isn't going to cost only $5k. Might be $5k for a brain (of one of the Scarlet models), but you have other modules you'll need to add on to that. I'd expect at least $10k to get a fully functional Scarlet.

Ryan, it's not just the Red that gives you a lot of image control. Granted, you get even more control because of RAW, but if you don't shoot it right it's still going to do you no good. Plus, don't forget to consider the additional workflow involved with Red. If you shoot any camera properly you'll be able to fine tune the footage, including the AF100. Also consider that you witnessed color correction on a DaVinci. The DaVinci is a very powerful system, so don't put all your faith in Red or RAW. Just because it's Red or RAW doesn't guarantee you good results. And don't rely on color correction or post to solve problems with your footage. There's many other aspects. And there's no reason an AF100 won't work well for you 5 years from now. People are still shooting with DVX100's (not even HD) and HVX200's and those are 8 and 5 years old already. Again, it's not the camera, it's the person using the camera.
 
powervideo said:
oops I meant the second one. Not being a fan of the prequels I'm not even sure what the other two are called. But my young son who is a movie nut, prefers the original 70's/80s originals because in his word's, "they look more real."
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That has nothing to do with what they were shot on. It has to do with how the prequels were shot (greenscreen) and all the CGI.
 
Mike@AF said:
Actually the Epic may reach people hands next month, or definitely in January, but he says that will be a handful. Actual production line models will be in February. Still, you'll be waiting a loooong time for the Scarlet. And Scarlet isn't going to cost only $5k. Might be $5k for a brain (of one of the Scarlet models), but you have other modules you'll need to add on to that. I'd expect at least $10k to get a fully functional Scarlet.

Ryan, it's not just the Red that gives you a lot of image control. Granted, you get even more control because of RAW, but if you don't shoot it right it's still going to do you no good. Plus, don't forget to consider the additional workflow involved with Red. If you shoot any camera properly you'll be able to fine tune the footage, including the AF100. Also consider that you witnessed color correction on a DaVinci. The DaVinci is a very powerful system, so don't put all your faith in Red or RAW. Just because it's Red or RAW doesn't guarantee you good results. And don't rely on color correction or post to solve problems with your footage. There's many other aspects. And there's no reason an AF100 won't work well for you 5 years from now. People are still shooting with DVX100's (not even HD) and HVX200's and those are 8 and 5 years old already. Again, it's not the camera, it's the person using the camera.
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Mike, I couldn't agree more. It truly is about the person using the camera, and not the camera. Not to say that a better camera wouldn't change things, but give it a break. This camera is only $5k!
 
You're absolutely right, great cinematography is about what you shot in the first place, the issue more for me is when I have to apologize to clients because I can't expose for the sky and the talent's face (run-and-gun, no 6K HMI or 20x20 silk on hand). I didn't mean to imply it's about covering mistakes, but rather fine tuning shots to match between different lenses, choosing exactly how much detail you want in the shadows, pulling information out of blown highlights, etc etc. And I know much of this can be done even in Color, but there's only so much. And then there's the issue of averaging color detail from every 4 pixels...

Again, can't tell you how much I want to make the push for this camera, but some little voice tells me to wait and see, wait and see.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Agreed. As a film maker my biggest problem is always securing a location. Once there one can easily light within 10 stops. 18 stops won't help much aside from doing a few setups when stealing a location before they kick you out or the cops come. Still, shooting this way how good is it really going to look?
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I agree. I don't really understand the whole 18 stops thing. You can't display 18 stops. I believe cinema projectors have at most ten stops of range. So all you're doing by recording 18 stops is making a lot of work for yourself in post in many instances.
 
RyanDeFranco said:
the issue more for me is when I have to apologize to clients because I can't expose for the sky and the talent's face (run-and-gun, no 6K HMI or 20x20 silk on hand).
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Well, see, here's the thing -- the AF100 is providing as much (or, in most cases, more!) dynamic range than pretty much anything before it. If you can't expose for the sky and the talent's face on an AF100, then that means you also couldn't do it on an EX3, or an EX1, or an HPX170, or an HVX200, or a PD170, or a DVX100, or a PD150, or ... well, you get my meaning, I hope. Point is, people have been working with pro video for years and years with less capable equipment, and they've always gotten by, so -- why is it when a more-capable unit comes along, suddenly it's not enough?

Again, can't tell you how much I want to make the push for this camera, but some little voice tells me to wait and see, wait and see.
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If you can wait, you should. Why buy anything when you don't need it?

But if what you're waiting for is a Scarlet S35, be aware that there will never be such a thing. It's now gone, replaced with the Epic Light -- and whatever performance and price increases such a transition will bring.
 
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