Workflow: Working with DNG ....what are the options ?

K

kurth

Well-known member
Continue the discussion at BMCuser.com. A new Landmine Community for Blackmagic Camera Users


while I'm waiting on the camera , and then a few months to let things settle down and the bugs to be sprayed .... probably around the end of the year, I would like to begin getting a handle on working with dng files . I'm already planning on updating my g5 running fcs 5 , I would just like to know to what . Will x be enough , or will someone need premiere . Someone with the experience please give us raw noobies a headstart. I'm no longer mac-centric so keep the advice open-minded. thanks
 
With Cinema DNG I believe you can edit nativity with Premiere Pro - then color correct with Speedgrade or Resolve

... or do initial color correcting in Resolve (it now includes auio for your dailies) and transcode it to prores or any codec for any editing software.
 
Last edited:
kurth said:
while I'm waiting on the camera , and then a few months to let things settle down and the bugs to be sprayed .... probably around the end of the year, I would like to begin getting a handle on working with dng files . I'm already planning on updating my g5 running fcs 5 , I would just like to know to what . Will x be enough , or will someone need premiere . Someone with the experience please give us raw noobies a headstart. I'm no longer mac-centric so keep the advice open-minded. thanks
Click to expand...

The obvious mac way is to use the newly designed Resolve, and transcode your footage. Theres a preset to go to ProRes and then conform back again for a final grade if you wish.

The RAW files are VERY VERY flat when they come out of the camera. You'd need to have a LUT on your monitor or transcode.

I think the bigger concern is storage and archiving. RAW files and ProRes Transcodes burns through media storage. And it needs to be fast enough to play and transcode. I think this will be the thing that shocks most.

RAW files are storage hungry and require fast storage to be properly workable.....You'll need to look at not only the computer, but managing your data.....

jb
 
Since this is a workflow topic, I'm putting out my curiosity...

With RED, I've always wanted to shoot to the SSDs, and have an external HD-SDI recording simultaneously for immediate dailies/proxies to cut with.

The question is if the Magic Cam's 3G-SDI link sends over ALL of the metadata and what recorder can read and store it. In this case, the recorder's ProRes or DNxHD proxies have whatever LUT's applied already on them, you take those and cut with them, then XML back to Resolve to finish, back out for a 2.5K master.

Dump the Proxies after the project is done. The trade-off's buying, attaching, and powering one more piece to the puzzle but not having to wait to render out material to edit.
 
What about:

1 - Ingest DNG raw dailies in Resolve, trim (slates...) apply a LUT for editing and export (ProRes, and lower res proxies)
2 - Edit ProRes + LR proxies in your editor (FCP / Premiere...)
3 - Export EDL / MXF ... from your editing software
4 - Finish in Resolve (grading)

I hope this makes sense, since I haven't been able to use Resolve yet (due to my Mac lacking a CUDA enabled GPU)
 
zareone said:
What about:

1 - Ingest DNG raw dailies in Resolve, trim (slates...) apply a LUT for editing and export (ProRes, and lower res proxies)
2 - Edit ProRes + LR proxies in your editor (FCP / Premiere...)
3 - Export EDL / MXF ... from your editing software
4 - Finish in Resolve (grading)

I hope this makes sense, since I haven't been able to use Resolve yet (due to my Mac lacking a CUDA enabled GPU)
Click to expand...

This is pretty much the primary workflow. Of course with 5 being going out of Resolve and back to your NLE to finish up everything.
 
Workflow is something exercising my worries. Getting fast enough storage on a budget, also I'm PC / Avid not mac at all so this mac-centric thing is an angularity.

Remember when the original Scarlet was mooted, people were saying the camera may be cheap, but the computer to work with it won't be. I think we're in a simiar situation here. People buying this (Probablt myself included) had better be prepared for a shock. I'm already planning my computer upgrade to handle Resolve.
 
Would cineform work for this? You can even compress lightly to 4444 with alpha channel.
I am interested in greenscreen and that looks very useful for storage.
Thats with the premium version I think.
 
CinemaDNG Workflow

CinemaDNG Workflow

Since everybody raves about 12 bit CinemaDNG - I play the advocatus diaboli :evil: and ask:

I wonder what workflow you guys are planing for CinemaDNG?

You would need a 12bit monitoring pipeline and software that can handle that sort of material.
What monitors, what graphic cards?

Usually you edit before grading.
As far as I know, Premiere still has some problems with CinemaDNG files.

What other NLE can deal with tose files?
Do they come as picture sequence or in a MFX container?

Frank
 
I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, titled "Workflow: BmDCC ProRes/DNxHD" or something, so I'm posting this here. Mods can move it if need be.

Anyway, related to Barry's question here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...chnology-Announcements-amp-Latest-Info/page15

... myself if I get a BmDCC, I'd most often use it to record ProRes.

10-bit 4:2:2 @ a few hundred megabits/sec. is more than enough for most of the work I do. Nice thing about the camera is that if a client requests it, we can record DNxHD or CinemaDNG instead.

But my questions are:

Will the non-DNG recordings (ProRes/DNxHD) look superflat-ish by default, or more like a good broadcast video cam recording?

Will the cam have typical camera settings for baking-in desired contrast, color, hue, sharpness, matrix, knee, and so forth when recording to ProRes/DNxHD?

Just trying to get an idea what the non-DNG recordings will look like, or how they can be adjusted in-camera to look like.

I understand that answers to these questions may be unknowable until the cam is closer to shipping.

Cheers.
 
Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
Will the non-DNG recordings (ProRes/DNxHD) look superflat-ish by default, or more like a good broadcast video cam recording?
Click to expand...

Answers in the general FAQ thread, but the info says FILM or VIDEO lot, which I'm guessing "FILM" means Prores LOG no lut, video = video lut, saturated etc. Hopefully they allow custom LUT transport through thunderbolt.

Also, the ProRes and DNxHD files are said not to retain the entire 13 Stops of DR. Similar to how not shooting LOG on F3 means not netting 13 stops, a little less. Not sure what it's rated, that's to be seen.

Hopefully next week I can get a lot of questions directly to someone at BMD that knows for sure, so that we can have them answered. Some of which I am sure can't be answered until they're little boxing up to ship.
 
Could you edit in Premiere then Grade the raw files in After Effect ? Or can you only grade/color correct raw in Resolve?
 
Postmaster said:
Since everybody raves about 12 bit CinemaDNG - I play the advocatus diaboli :evil: and ask:

I wonder what workflow you guys are planing for CinemaDNG?
Click to expand...

Same one I've been using for RED the past sum'n odd years.

You would need a 12bit monitoring pipeline and software that can handle that sort of material.
What monitors, what graphic cards?
Click to expand...

Upgrading to a new Macbook and Mac Tower, already installed Aja cards in all of our systems.

Usually you edit before grading.
As far as I know, Premiere still has some problems with CinemaDNG files.
Click to expand...

Cut ProRes, EDL out to Resolve. Same workflow most people use.

What other NLE can deal with tose files?
Do they come as picture sequence or in a MFX container?

Frank
Click to expand...

NOt sure if it's a container or just a sequence.

Why would you try to cut RAW in an NLE? Acquire > 1 light > Proxy > Edit > EDL > color > master > Deliver

I get what you're saying, and I agree that there will be a lot of rude awakenings. A lot of us have agreed on that already, but that's why the community is here, to help those patient enough through the process.

Those that cannot participate with RAW can still use Log ProRes, which is offered as an internal option not external. Then later, they can upgrade to using the advanced acquisition format.

Some will make it, some will not.
 
Postmaster said:
Since everybody raves about 12 bit CinemaDNG - I play the advocatus diaboli :evil: and ask:

You would need a 12bit monitoring pipeline and software that can handle that sort of material.
What monitors, what graphic cards?
Click to expand...

Im not a post guy, but I dont know if thats true. That's what waveforms and vectorscopes are for. We've been using bit depth limited monitoring for a long time with wide gamut colourspace in other situations. Doesn't seem to have been a deal breaker yet.

Postmaster said:
Usually you edit before grading.
As far as I know, Premiere still has some problems with CinemaDNG files.
Click to expand...

You can do this through Resolve. Transcode to your desired editorial codec, then conform back through resolve for a final grade. Again, this happens in other RAW and LOG workflows. This is the same (RED, Alexa).

I think you'd be pretty crazy to try and edit with Native cinema DNG files. That's why they put ProRes and DNX in the camera if you want to go straight to edit and deliver without Resolve.

Postmaster said:
What other NLE can deal with tose files?
Do they come as picture sequence or in a MFX container?

Frank
Click to expand...

A Sequnce. Again, you probably could edit with native DNG's but why would you ?

jb
 
Bueller said:
I'm pretty sure that "Video" means REC 709.
Click to expand...

Correct. You can choose "VIDEO" which is 709 (loosing a bit of DR) or "FILM" which is BMD's version of LOG. This should be the same DR as DNG. In this case you could still do a quick grade within FCP if you didn't want to go through to Resolve and back again...

The internal processes in Resolve are much much better for colour correction than FCP....

jb
 
Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
10-bit 4:2:2 @ a few hundred megabits/sec. is more than enough for most of the work I do. Nice thing about the camera is that if a client requests it, we can record DNxHD or CinemaDNG instead.

But my questions are:

Will the non-DNG recordings (ProRes/DNxHD) look superflat-ish by default, or more like a good broadcast video cam recording?

Will the cam have typical camera settings for baking-in desired contrast, color, hue, sharpness, matrix, knee, and so forth when recording to ProRes/DNxHD?

Just trying to get an idea what the non-DNG recordings will look like, or how they can be adjusted in-camera to look like.

I understand that answers to these questions may be unknowable until the cam is closer to shipping.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I don't think there will be any in camera adjustments of the ProRes / DNG settings if you choose VIDEO. WB will be the only control you'll have other than exposure. BMD would say, that's what Resolve is for. They made an uncompressed camera with RAW and that's what their focus was on.

In your scenario, you'd more likely choose FILM ProRes and then grade within your NLE. If you want broadcast style pictures, then the VIDEO mode lokos surprisingly good, but you will loose DR. Seems a waste to me ;-)

jb
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top