Working independently with a client after meeting them through a company

[pulp]

The unwritten rule is freelancers don't steal clients from other freelancers or production companies.
You always say "Call them, but ask for me if it works out schedule-wise."
And see what you can work out with the company in this specific case.

He doesn't want them. So, if I tell him no, I don't get his business. He asked me, specifically, if we would shoot for him rather than work through the company. I hardly see that as "stealing" if he doesn't intend to work with them anymore. I'm having trouble getting this point across.

I'm meeting with the company tomorrow to pick up the check for the first shoot (she rushed it so much that we didn't even meet any time prior). I'll speak with the client tomorrow and make sure that he makes his choice not to work with them known before shooting anything with him independently.

 

[milksac]

It's clear you've already made up your mind. Why bother with trying to validate your decision in a public forum? Steal the client and move on.

 

[Jawa Ex Machina]

Is it okay to hook up with a girl that a friend of yours used to date?

I think it depends on where you live. For example, right now I'm living in a town where there are 50,000 people, and the town nearest is a two hour drive.
Over here, it's kind of unavoidable.

If you live in a major city where there are a lot more production companies and clients, I'm sure the rules are different.

 

[Capture242]

I would let the production company know what the client is proposing and of the potential that we both can loose business if a reasonable work around is not found. I would propose a partnership with them on projects for this particular client - for a greater share of the profits . Since the procom is really brokering the work and relaying the info to you in any event (which they are not good at) , you can work with the client directly from the preproduction stage, which will make your workflow smoother. If the procom are serious about business, and are not greedy, I am certain that they would prefer to take a lesser cut to maintain the client. Really I see it as a win for everyone.

Just my 5 cents on the matter.

 

[havasuphoto]

It's clear you've already made up your mind. Why bother with trying to validate your decision in a public forum? Steal the client and move on.

+1
You've already been given valuable advice from those who have had more than one shoot, and have dealt with multiple clients and production companies. What you do, from this experience, will define the type of person you are, or want to become. It's very tempting to "steal" the client, and cut the production company out of the picture. However, those people don't last.........
So, chose to live for today....or chose for the future.
I think if you call the client yourself and tell them what you think they should do(cut the production company out of the picture, and just use you), speaks volumes about your work ethic, or lack thereof.

You can live your live however you see fit. As was stated by an earlier poster, maybe you should start your own production company.

It is all too tempting to "steal" your very first client away from the production company, and take the money and run. But, that will probably shorten your career greatly.
Here's something maybe you didn't think about; maybe the production company, and the client have a very close relationship-you being new to the production company, and they not having the time to check your background, decide to "throw you a curve ball"......and perhaps the client is playing along. Think about it.........this one choice you make, may adversely affect your burgeoning career, for a long time.

 

[Viddovation]

He doesn't want them. So, if I tell him no, I don't get his business. He asked me, specifically, if we would shoot for him rather than work through the company. I hardly see that as "stealing" if he doesn't intend to work with them anymore. I'm having trouble getting this point across.

Then don't take his business. You're choosing short term financial gain over long term career success.

Business isn't just done from call to wrap. People don't only talk to clients between 9 to 5. They play golf. They get drinks. People talk, and they have a tendency to complain about all the crappy things that happened at work.

People gossip.

How many of your friends ex-girlfriends do you think you could date before your friends stopped being your friends? Do you expect them to beleive you when you say "But she told me you guys we're breaking up anyway, and we never actually went out until after she broke up with you." ?

Business is business, but the common denominator is trust. If Joey tells me you steal girlfriends, do you think I'm likely to risk letting you spend time near mine? The same logic applies to clients...

 

[Scott F]

+1

Make that +2. You're 3 pages deep fighting everyone's good advice.

 

[pulp]

So, I went today to meet with the woman to pick up the checks. I haven't spoken to the client since the shoot, and the only thing that was said during the shoot about her or about working in the future was, "if I decide not to work with her anymore, are you guys still available?" My co-shooter said yes, and gave him a business card. We haven't heard from him since. I intended to tell him that, if he wanted us to shoot for him independently, he'd have to finish his contracted work with the company and we'd do whatever else he wanted. That never happened, I never spoke with him after the shoot.

After driving to meet with the company owner, she reviewed all the footage and imported everything to her computer, as well as collecting tapes. I found that odd as, original, we were going to be editing.

She then told us that she heard some troublesome information. She said she had heard from the client's business manager (who wasn't on set, we never met anyone except the client and the girl he hired to do interviews) that we had said very negative things about her, that she was ripping him off, and that we'd do the shoot for a fraction of what she was demanding. She said she had been told that she was "baiting and switching" (a term I've never used, and doesn't make sense in this context), and that he should be furious about a "short notice fee" she tacked on to the invoice AFTER the shoot (which we didn't know about, again, we had no contact with him since the shoot). We never discussed her or the company at the shoot, aside from him saying he might not work with her again. None of the things she suggested had any founding, and this mystery person who overheard it all didn't exist. She claimed we were trying to undercut her. I told her that we had no contact with him, and that we had nothing negative to say about her during the shoot; the only thing we discussed at the shoot was the SHOOT, and at the end, that he might not want her business anymore, and asked for our contact info. We told her that plainly. She asked why, and we said we weren't going to turn down work just because he didn't want her services anymore. We were very plain and forward about that. She had no contract, and when she mentioned how most companies had a no-contest agreement, we reminded her that she didn't have a contract with us, and that when we offered one of our own, she refused it. From her comments over the next two hours, I summized that she had no contract with the client, either, or the "short notice fee" would have been been in the contract or void. She said that the client didn't answer any of her calls, and she had no idea why. She claimed we had taken his business (which, again, if she had a contract, wouldn't be possible, but that's beside the point). We told her plainly: we didn't, we hadn't heard from him. So, neither of us were doing this shoot.

She paid us, and told us there'd be work for us in the future. After this ordeal and all the random, mindless accusations thrown around by some mystery person, we were a little wary.

Then, I got a call from a previous employer that's on my resume as a reference. She said that the woman called her right before we arrived, and asked if we had ever screwed her over. My previous employer said no. She then explained, IN DETAIL, this situations and the accusations made. My previous employer said that didn't sound like me. My previous employer told me the whole situation, down to the name of my co-shooter. She said it was as if the woman was trying to "warn" her, but having done dozens of shoots for that employer without issue, she thought it silly, but wanted to be sure I knew.

So, I called the woman back and politely asked if she called my previous employer. She said yes, to check my references. I said no, that day. She said no, she hadn't. I told her her that she claimed she did. She told me "oh, I called to ask if you were trustworthy." I said she said she knew all the details, and she said she didn't tell her any specifics. I told her my previous employer knew everything, down to the co-shooter's name, and the woman said, "oh, well, I might have told her, just to get her opinion."

I simply... Don't understand this. If the woman were trying to short us, that's one thing. But she paid in full. If the client were trying to come up with excuses to not work with her anymore and use us as a scapegoat (which would be lousy of him, but possible), that'd make sense, but he didn't contact us for the work, either. As for calling my previous employer, and then lying to be about it... I have no idea on that one.

TL;DR: Crap.

I should specify again, all of the previous discussion here was speculative. I NEVER contacted the client to do the job myself. It was NEVER discussed. It NEVER made it past discussion on this forum, outside of him asking, if he ended his business with the company, if we'd still be interested, and my co-shooter said yes. No contracts, no discussion of the company or her practices, no mystery person, nothing. The discussion of working with the client privately never made it past that: discussion, here. We're still trying to figure out what the hell just happened and why.

 

[havasuphoto]

Sounds kinda like you were set up. nothing in that story makes complete sense, and sometimes, when re-telling a story, small, but critical details get left out.
also, she may have been "fishing"....misleading you a bit with her questions about what she "heard" to see how you would respond.
the whole things sounds like of odd.
This business is very small, and kinda cliquish. since this was your first job for the production company, i'm left wondering.......was the client testing your loyalty and integrity for the production company??

take the information/advice you've received here, and move forward.

Take a day or two to let things sink in, then try to give us a better synopsis, as you digest the information. You made the correct decision to not bad mouth the production company.

 

[Viddovation]

I should specify again, all of the previous discussion here was speculative. I NEVER contacted the client to do the job myself. It was NEVER discussed. It NEVER made it past discussion on this forum, outside of him asking, if he ended his business with the company, if we'd still be interested, and my co-shooter said yes. No contracts, no discussion of the company or her practices, no mystery person, nothing. The discussion of working with the client privately never made it past that: discussion, here. We're still trying to figure out what the hell just happened and why.

What happened is you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

I swear, this should be a sticky, because it's a perfect example of exactly why it's incredibly short sighted to try to steal clients.

You keep trying to rationalize why what you did *shouldn't* be wrong; "there was no contract", "they weren't going to work with you again anyway", "why should I lose work too?" - but you're missing the bigger point here.

People talked. And even if they can't verify their suspicions, the fact is - those suspicions were warranted. Exact wording aside, you were trying to cut out the production company and work directly with her client. And you know it.

You got caught.

And key to the point: The lady at the production company immediately called your reference, and now you might as well remove that reference from your resume.

And why, oh god, why did you call the production lady back and force her to confess that she called your reference?

This is a cascade of poor decisions, and half-truths and lies that can only cause you more problems down the road.

Ultimately it doesn't matter who told on you - and whether they had facts or just suspicions, if you'd kept your nose clean, there would have been nothing to tell.

Reread the first 3 pages of this thread. See how many people "told you so."

 

[Scott F]

She then told us that she heard some troublesome information. She said she had heard from the client's business manager (who wasn't on set, we never met anyone except the client and the girl he hired to do interviews) that we had said very negative things about her, that she was ripping him off, and that we'd do the shoot for a fraction of what she was demanding……..She claimed we were trying to undercut her…..

Maybe they read this thread or some of your others? I'm only half kidding here, you do air a lot of your dirty laundry online. Permanent record, my friend.

 

[pulp]

Reread the first 3 pages of this thread. See how many people "told you so."

Maybe you missed all of this.

I should specify again, all of the previous discussion here was speculative. I NEVER contacted the client to do the job myself. It was NEVER discussed. It NEVER made it past discussion on this forum, outside of him asking, if he ended his business with the company, if we'd still be interested, and my co-shooter said yes. No contracts, no discussion of the company or her practices, no mystery person, nothing. The discussion of working with the client privately never made it past that: discussion, here. We're still trying to figure out what the hell just happened and why.

 

[groveChuck]

We're still trying to figure out what the hell just happened and why.

Karma?

Or, don't look backwards asking "What happened?" but look forward asking "What have I/we learned about the business, and how to run a business?"

I understand you didn't do anything, yet. But still, lesson learned?

I wish you the best of luck in your business in the future.

 

[pulp]

Maybe they read this thread or some of your others? I'm only half kidding here, you do air a lot of your dirty laundry online. Permanent record, my friend.

I don't use any identifying info here.

Karma?

Or, don't look backwards asking "What happened?" but look forward asking "What have I/we learned about the business, and how to run a business?"

I understand you didn't do anything, yet. But still, lesson learned?

I wish you the best of luck in your business in the future.

That's the issue, what have I learned? "Don't consider things?" We're just baffled at what the hell happened.

 

[Viddovation]

Maybe you missed all of this.

Speculative, okay.

But you mentioned this a minimum of two places that could have potentially made it back to the production company:

1. To the client. If you're assuming the client wouldn't mention it to the production company, that's a risky assumption... I know of some business owners who would see it as a bargaining chip. And even if the client doesn't lay out their intentions, production companies are wary of exactly this sort of thing.

2. You posted everything of DVXUser. Despite not using identifying info, maybe someone knows enough to know who you are, and to know the players involved. It's not impossible. Perhaps improbable, not impossible.

 

[Viddovation]

That's the issue, what have I learned? "Don't consider things?" We're just baffled at what the hell happened.

Do you realize yet the potential negative consequences of stealing clients? That's the lesson.

So far you may have:
*Damaged your reputation with the production company.
*Damaged your reputation with your reference.
*Potentially lost future work due to these damaged relationships.
*Failed to yet secure the initial work with the production company's client.

Where in this chain of events have you put money in your pocket, or enhanced your career?

 

[pulp]

Speculative, okay.

But you mentioned this a minimum of two places that could have potentially made it back to the production company:

1. To the client. If you're assuming the client wouldn't mention it to the production company, that's a risky assumption... I know of some business owners who would see it as a bargaining chip. And even if the client doesn't lay out their intentions, production companies are wary of exactly this sort of thing.

The client hasn't spoken to the her, so she claims. His second party has, this mystery person we've never met who made all of these false accusations that don't make sense. As far as a bargaining chip, the client didn't want anything except that extra charge, that I was entirely unaware of and had zero to do with me, removed from his invoice. Nothing to do with me.

2. You posted everything of DVXUser. Despite not using identifying info, maybe someone knows enough to know who you are, and to know the players involved. It's not impossible. Perhaps improbable, not impossible.

Highly improbable. Do you have any idea how paranoid that claim is? Thoughts of users, the vagueness of my discussion, and presumably how common the situation is judging from comments... add to that, it still doesn't explain the myriad of insanity that followed. It explains ONE thing, which I told her plainly: I was willing to shoot for her client if he didn't wish to continue with her services.

 

[Gary Huff]

I don't think so, Viddovation...it sounds like this is a half-assed company that's barely surviving (or is a new startup that won't last very long). I don't think there'll be any long term repercussions out of this.

Good grief, people, just because it's called a "production company" doesn't mean that the community even knows who the hell that company (or the people who run it) are. Mostly likely, they'll damage their reputation with one or two small fry businesses and that'll be that.

 

[pulp]

Do you realize yet the potential negative consequences of stealing clients? That's the lesson.

So far you may have:
*Damaged your reputation with the production company.
*Damaged your reputation with your reference.
*Potentially lost future work due to these damaged relationships.
*Failed to yet secure the initial work with the production company's client.

Where in this chain of events have you put money in your pocket, or enhanced your career?

Well, since the client was never stolen... Jesus god, how hard to I have to hammer this nail in for you?

The rest of this BS that followed with this situation has nothing to do with this. Even if I took the client out to dinner and whisked him off his feet, the rest still doesn't make ANY sense on ANYONE'S part.

Uh, as far as putting money in my pocket, I was still paid for the job, and I am glad to have this woman in my "do not shoot" list, even if she contacts me for work in the future. This battiness is unreasonable.

 

[pulp]

Good grief, people, just because it's called a "production company" doesn't mean that the community even knows who the hell that company (or the people who run it) are. Mostly likely, they'll damage their reputation with one or two small fry businesses and that'll be that.

She told me she has 40 or so photographers, and 4 videographers on call. Her office was out of her dining room. A man who I assume was her husband was her business partner.