Working independently with a client after meeting them through a company

[pulp]

For years I worked in a the safari / lodge business, and a lot of our customers were brought to us through agents. Many times the agents would send us representatives from smaller companies based abroad who had no actual resources on the ground. Some of them would try to cut out the middlemen once they had been introduced. So we are left with the choice of taking direct bookings from a small operator (who would bring in a few groups a year) or remain loyal to the agents who provide most of our business the whole year round. No contest. Once you start undermining and undercutting in any business you stand to lose your reputation.

You're comparing small, new clients and the big-time agents that brought them to you. We have here a multi-million dollar client and a "production company" based out of a dining room table.

Now, it would appear that the lady accused you of a number of things (essentially that you had undermined her operation, said she was amateur or whatever, she was charging too much and taking all the profit, she had no equipment, and that you had tried to steal her customer). You had been discussing those very things here on these boards, so clearly you had been thinking about it.

I had been thinking that her operation was a little unorganized. I hadn't been thinking the rambling accusations that were made. I also had no idea about her biggest accusation, that we told the client he should throw a fit about a "short notice fee," which we weren't even aware of, and was, as she told us, added to his invoice AFTER the shoot, AFTER we had last contact with him. The SINGLE thing I discussed here was whether or not it is ethical to work with a client who she will no longer be working with.

Is it not likely that you might have bad mouthed her a little bit when the customer talked to you about cutting her out? Perhaps you and your partner may have hinted at some of those things to him (and he may have relayed this back to her, as a reason to stop using her services)?

Absolutely not. Again, for those who dislike reading previous posts, that conversation went as long as this.

Client: I'm thinking of not working with her anymore, would you still want to shoot for me?
Co-shooter: Sure. Here's my card.

Fin.

Prior to that, we hardly spoke to him. I asked a few times what he wanted shot next and he told me. That was the extent of our discussion in person.

Anyway, all the problems would have been avoided if you had deflected his questions outright, and made it clear that you have an obligation to your employer (and believe me, most people will respect you for that even if its not the answer they wanted to hear).

Again, I don't believe that. These other unfounded, unwarranted, and entirely nonsense accusations suggest something else is at play here. I've given it further thought, as someone else had suggested prior, and my co-shooter and I had discussed it the entire ride home. Between these accusations from a person we never met but that the "production company" claims exists, and her lying to me several times about calling one of my contacts, I have no reason to trust her. And no, without a contract, previous discussion, and especially after all of this silliness, I have no obligation to her. I can see why the client would be disinterested in her services, because she works without a contract and adds whatever stipulations she feels needed as she goes alone, both on the video end and the client's end.

 

[Viddovation]

Do you honestly believe this woman found this damn forum? You honestly can be convinced that someone, anyone saw this information here, full of vagueties and non-descriptions, and tracked that woman, and linked them? Jesus. What's the thing about hitting a bullet with another bullet while blindfolded and riding a horse? Again, we're talking about a person with a presumably single-digit client base, 4 videographers in her contacts (6 if you include us), and an office/dining room?

Maybe someone on DVXUser just didn't like your ethics, and decided to look you up so they'd know who not to work with in the future. As many have said - stealing clients is bad mojo, and no one wants to hire someone who would do that in a heartbeat. And maybe they happened to be closer to the people in the situation than they anticipated.

Or, as Simon suggests, maybe you and your co-shooter were more candid then your remember.

Either way it works out the same - don't try to bite the hand that feeds you by cutting out the middleman.

Sometimes, when you do call that middleman and tell them what happened they'll give you a blessing to take the work and the client. Make sure you remember to send them a gift - they certainly just gave you one. Sometimes they have a story as to why the client is no longer with them. Sometimes, they just thank you and go fix it with the client. But they'll remember that you were loyal.

When you're working for someone else, don't hand out your own business card. In fact, ask them for some of theirs, so you can hand out their business card. Refer your middlemen more business, and they'll send you their business. When other production companies call and ask for a freelancer recommendation, they'll recommend you. Maybe today the production company or freelancer who hires you works in their living room and doesn't manage their clients effectively. In ten years they might have a downtown office with a view. Grow with them instead of undercutting them. This is a people business.

It's not uncommon to screw up this etiquette when you're starting out. Faux paus happen. You move on.

Doing the work isn't the hard part. It's gettiing the work that's the hard part.

 

[ian dart]

as a freelancer stealing your employers customers is the lowest act you can do in this business
and no good ever comes of it.
you have spent six pages trying to justify to yourself why it is not wrong....

that should tell you something.......

write of both parties. chalk it up to experience and move on

 

[pulp]

as a freelancer stealing your employers customers is the lowest act you can do in this business
and no good ever comes of it.
you have spent six pages trying to justify to yourself why it is not wrong....

that should tell you something.......

write of both parties. chalk it up to experience and move on

Thanks for your opinion, but I think you've missed a LOT.

 

[Viddovation]

Absolutely not. Again, for those who dislike reading previous posts, that conversation went as long as this.

Client: I'm thinking of not working with her anymore, would you still want to shoot for me?
Co-shooter: Sure. Here's my card.

Fin.

Prior to that, we hardly spoke to him. I asked a few times what he wanted shot next and he told me. That was the extent of our discussion in person.

GIRL: I'm thinking of breaking up with my boyfriend. Do you want to hang out next week?
BOY: Sure, let me get your number.

Fin.

*******

It's a risk reward proposition, but the guy who just got broken up with is not going to be happy that he got dumped. Period. Even if she would have left him no matter what, the perception will be that the new guy stole his girlfriend. Key word - perception. Doesn't matter what you meant - matters how people heard it.

And if the ex-boyfriend happens to *know* the guy who took his girl, he's not going to be happy with that guy. If the guy who took his girl is a *friend*, then he's going to feel betrayed.

Clients change hands all the time. Fact of life. But make sure you understand the consequences when all the parties know each other.

 

[pulp]

Maybe someone on DVXUser just didn't like your ethics, and decided to look you up so they'd know who not to work with in the future. As many have said - stealing clients is bad mojo, and no one wants to hire someone who would do that in a heartbeat. And maybe they happened to be closer to the people in the situation than they anticipated.

Or, as Simon suggests, maybe you and your co-shooter were more candid then your remember.

Or maybe someone's just making stuff up to justify why their client doesn't want to work with them anymore. Seriously, you keep making this same point, but you haven't even attempted to make sense of the stuff that... well, doesn't make any sense. Is it just easier to neglect that?

For what it's worth, I've made this same case to every shooter I work with, and they've all said, without a contract from this woman, and certainly if she denies one, if this guy decided he didn't want to work with her anymore but still wanted videographers, and asked for us specifically, we'd be stupid to turn it down out of allegiance to some fly-by-night coffeetable "production company." Just a thought.

 

[pulp]

GIRL: I'm thinking of breaking up with my boyfriend. Do you want to hang out next week?
BOY: Sure, let me get your number.

Fin.

If they're broken up by the time you hang out? Let me tell you from experience in the dating world, since you've got all the knowledge on the video side:

when it comes to the good ones, if you don't, someone else will.

It's a risk reward proposition, but the guy who just got broken up with is not going to be happy that he got dumped. Period. Even if she would have left him no matter what, the perception will be that the new guy stole his girlfriend. Key word - perception. Doesn't matter what you meant - matters how people heard it.

And if the ex-boyfriend happens to *know* the guy who took his girl, he's not going to be happy with that guy. If the guy who took his girl is a *friend*, then he's going to feel betrayed.

Clients change hands all the time. Fact of life. But make sure you understand the consequences when all the parties know each other.

Well, she can "perceive" whatever she wants, but when NONE of us are working these shoots, I think that's a pretty good indication that no one was stolen from anyone. And the fact that she's still calling me this morning about working these shoots says:

1. She's not too upset anymore, and
2. She's not too stable, after all the accusations and BS.

Just a thought.

 

[Viddovation]

Or maybe someone's just making stuff up to justify why their client doesn't want to work with them anymore. Seriously, you keep making this same point, but you haven't even attempted to make sense of the stuff that... well, doesn't make any sense. Is it just easier to neglect that?

I only have one side of the story. And I don't know how accurately you're representing her remarks. It is easier to neglect it, and in the long run, that's the minor point.

I keep making the same larger point because you keep ignoring it, and because the larger ethical and practical one is the one that will build your business the right way.

For what it's worth, I've made this same case to every shooter I work with, and they've all said, without a contract from this woman, and certainly if she denies one, if this guy decided he didn't want to work with her anymore but still wanted videographers, and asked for us specifically, we'd be stupid to turn it down out of allegiance to some fly-by-night coffeetable "production company." Just a thought.

You joined this board in May. You admit that you just got out of college, and are fresh to the industry. Maybe you're working with the wrong shooters.

Just a thought.

 

[pulp]

I only have one side of the story. And I don't know how accurately you're representing her remarks. It is easier to neglect it, and in the long run, that's the minor point.

I keep making the same larger point because you keep ignoring it, and because the larger ethical and practical one is the one that will build your business the right way.

I'll gladly ask her of the accusations and write out a transcript. I'm not sure what you're missing out of this, but it's pretty straight forward: she's made up a person who doesn't exist to have made claims that don't make chronological sense, called my contacts to detail these stories, and then lied to me when I asked her about them. I don't think my ethics are the ones that need to be pondered over much.

You joined this board in May. You admit that you just got out of college, and are fresh to the industry. Maybe you're working with the wrong shooters.

Just a thought.

I'm sorry... Did you just validate my level of experience based on how long I've been posting on an internet forum?

The first shooter I asked just got picked up by a company, based on his references (the Spiderman films, the LOTR films, among others), to shoot for 90k a year. His immediate response was "hell yes."

 

[ian dart]

i dont think i missed much.
i read all your posts and i got the impression you were trying to justify stealing your employers customer.....

am i wrong....

when approached by your employers (she was paying you) customer (he was paying her) the correct response is to politely advise him that he should discus it with your employer.
anything else is a low act and should be avoided.

 

[David Jimerson]

pulp, you came into this asking about "etiquette." You weren't asking about contracts, legalities, technicalities, but "etiquette." You've gotten a near-unanimous response and it sure seems like you simply don't like what you're hearing.

Professionality is about more than words on a contract page. It's about a way conducting yourself and presenting yourself to the world you're in. It's about going an extra step wherever you can. If you actually have a blog where you ***** about clients, then you're about six laps behind.

 

[Viddovation]

pulp, you came into this asking about "etiquette." You weren't asking about contracts, legalities, technicalities, but "etiquette." You've gotten a near-unanimous response and it sure seems like you simply don't like what you're hearing.

Professionality is about more than words on a contract page. It's about a way conducting yourself and presenting yourself to the world you're in. It's about going an extra step wherever you can. If you actually have a blog where you ***** about clients, then you're about six laps behind.

+1.

It's all been said. I'm going back to lurking.

 

[pulp]

pulp, you came into this asking about "etiquette." You weren't asking about contracts, legalities, technicalities, but "etiquette." You've gotten a near-unanimous response and it sure seems like you simply don't like what you're hearing.

I don't like what I'm hearing now because, after the illogical nonsense that followed, people are claiming "told you so, that's what you get."

It makes as much sense as someone asking if it's ethical to make a purchase from the money in the give-a-penny-take-a-penny and then being robbed while in discussion.

Professionality is about more than words on a contract page. It's about a way conducting yourself and presenting yourself to the world you're in. It's about going an extra step wherever you can. If you actually have a blog where you ***** about clients, then you're about six laps behind.

Maybe you've missed this EVERY TIME I've said it, but the blog contains primarily people I will NEVER work with, and one or two who've tried to get away without paying, that I won't work for again. If they haven't tried to rip me off, they either aren't mention or are mentioned positively, in passing. And, if you took the time to examine what you were talking about before doing so, no one is ever mentioned by name, company, or anything identifying. But I'm sure you will dismiss this, too.

 

[pulp]

i dont think i missed much.
i read all your posts and i got the impression you were trying to justify stealing your employers customer.....

am i wrong....

Why yes, yes you are. Because it didn't happen. It was discussed here. In order to justify having done something, I would have had to of done it first. Maybe you just missed the part where the client didn't want her business, and isn't working with her anymore, and yet we still weren't hired.

 

[David Jimerson]

OK, pulp. Good luck. But this thread has pretty much run its course; everyone's already said what needs to be said.