Working independently with a client after meeting them through a company

[pulp]

This seems like a pretty specific question, but it's happened a few times, and now I'm wondering what the etiquette is on this kind of thing.

I was contacted by a company to do a shoot for one of their new clients. The client was incredibly nice, and the company wasn't bad, but a little disorganized and a bit of a pain in the ass at times (mostly they want us to meet up with them on every topic, which is a 3-hour drive to do so, and they don't seem to understand why we, a shooter I work with and I, are reluctant to give them that every time they want us to pick up a check or something).

The client also wanted whoever the company found to do two more shoots in the near future, this coming week. After the first shoot, when we were saying goodbye, shaking hands, exchanging contact info, etc, he said "I'll get ahold of you guys, maybe I'll just have you come do it," which meant, to me, that he didn't want to work with the company contracting us anymore, but instead work directly with us. Further discussion has pointed to that being the case, I assume he realizes that the company contracting us isn't really doing any work, just relaying the information he gives them and taking a large percentage of what he pays to have us do the shoot.

So, my question is, other than potentially missing out on future shoots with other clients this company might point us to, what's the down side to doing this? What's the etiquette when this happens? In the past, when this has happened, the client and I both knew that the company charged incredibly high prices and paid me very little, and that the contracting company was very disorganized and didn't do very satisfactory work because of that, so by cutting them out, they'd be paying less for the video, while I still saw far more profit. This is a similar situation, but I can't say from experience yet that the contractor is poorly run, though I assume if he is looking to avoid them and work directly with us, and from some of the exchanges with the contractor, that may be the case.

TL;DR: A contractor got us some shoots with a client, the client decided he wants to work directly with us and ignore the contractor now that he's found shooters he liked, and the contractor doesn't really provide him with anything that isn't something we provide for them. What's the etiquette on such a thing?

 

[milksac]

what's the down side to doing this?

Even in major markets the production community is relatively small - everybody knows everybody. If you burn this company it won't be a secret. Other production companies might not trust you, hiring you might be perceived as a risk. "Don't hire that guy, he'll uncut you in a heartbeat and steal your clients".

the company charged incredibly high prices and paid me very little

What you get paid is up to you. If a company doesn't pay enough you should decline the offer for work or negotiate a higher rate. If the client makes unreasonable expectations like a 3 hour drive for a meeting that could have been handled over the phone you have the right to refuse the work. It sounds like this company runs all over you and you allow it to happen.

two more shoots in the near future

That's not much of a carrot. If the client had 200 more shoots over the next year and was willing to sign a contract it might be worth having a little dirt on your reputation. How do you justify burning a client relationship and damaging my reputation for the income from 2 more shoots?

 

[Wilbur Eddings]

I agree with the milk sack.
Very wise advice.
+1

 

[pulp]

Even in major markets the production community is relatively small - everybody knows everybody. If you burn this company it won't be a secret. Other production companies might not trust you, hiring you might be perceived as a risk. "Don't hire that guy, he'll uncut you in a heartbeat and steal your clients".


What you get paid is up to you. If a company doesn't pay enough you should decline the offer for work or negotiate a higher rate. If the client makes unreasonable expectations like a 3 hour drive for a meeting that could have been handled over the phone you have the right to refuse the work. It sounds like this company runs all over you and you allow it to happen.


That's not much of a carrot. If the client had 200 more shoots over the next year and was willing to sign a contract it might be worth having a little dirt on your reputation. How do you justify burning a client relationship and damaging my reputation for the income from 2 more shoots?

Thank you for your input.

My question is moreso, when a client WANTS to work with me directly rather than through a production company (who really offers nothing other than organization, they don't do anything as far as shooting or editing, the shooter does all the work), should I be telling him, "no thanks, I don't want your money, get ahold of the company if you want to hire me again?" It seems to me he's less than happy with the company, but happy with the people they sent out to do the shoot for him (IE: myself and the other shooter).

It doesn't seem to me like this "production company" does a lot of work, since they're not very good at it, nor do they really offer any services other than connecting clients with shooters and taking the majority of the payment. I see this all too often, and I've had several clients who smelled the poop, and wanted to hire me directly. I'm just wondering how to handle that. It's not me going out of my way to undercut anyone; we're being contacted to the do the work directly. Am I supposed to turn that down because of some false loyalty to someone I've done one shoot for?

As far as "decline the offer for work or negotiate a higher price," that'd be great, but on the same coin, communism sounds awesome. These people will simply find someone else, which is fine, but if I want to keep working, being in the business only a few years, I have to occasionally take crap work. There are so many people doing this work now, kids in high school or college students looking for anything they can get, that people can almost offer nothing and find someone to do a decent job. My point is, while it sounds nice to be able to control what you make, when you're starting out, that isn't always the case.

I should also say, I really do appreciate your advice, and I don't mean to "tell you" anything at all. I'm just speaking from my experience.

 

[havasuphoto]

But for the Production Company, you would have never met that client.
I understand what the client "wants" to do, but simply explain to them that what they want isn't possible, because you work for the production company.
Since you've only been in this business a few years, you should heed milksacs' advice. You work for the production company, who provide you with the clients. If you don't like the conditions or the pay, feel free to work elsewhere.
But, to "steal" a client away from a production company, is bad mojo, and may hurt you further on down the road. You wanna make a name for yourself-I get that. Most people in this industry do. But, you do that with quality work, and integrity. Quality work comes with good equipment, and practice. Integrity takes years to develop, and seconds to destroy.

You must have patience. Be thankful you have work, and are out there shooting. Maintain your integrity, and eventually you will move up the "ladder". If you go out on your own, you may not like what's at the end of the road. Stay with a production company, let them do the leg work for you, and continue to impress them, and the clients with your work.

If the client isn't happy with the production company, and decides to use another company, they can mention that they liked working with you, and ask that production company if they could bring you on board for their project.
That, is how you move up the ladder.

Also, it's a good idea to do some research on some of the larger production companies(like Saatchi & Saatchi-they do Toyota and Yamaha-just to name a few clients), and look at some of their work. Find out what other production companies are in your area, or, are specializing in the kind of filming you're doing. Get your work out there, and when the clients start talking about your work, others will hear.
Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

What is your ultimate goal??

You asked for advice, and I have given mine.

 

[pulp]

But for the Production Company, you would have never met that client.
I understand what the client "wants" to do, but simply explain to them that what they want isn't possible, because you work for the production company.
Since you've only been in this business a few years, you should heed milksacs' advice. You work for the production company, who provide you with the clients. If you don't like the conditions or the pay, feel free to work elsewhere.
But, to "steal" a client away from a production company, is bad mojo, and may hurt you further on down the road. You wanna make a name for yourself-I get that. Most people in this industry do. But, you do that with quality work, and integrity. Quality work comes with good equipment, and practice. Integrity takes years to develop, and seconds to destroy.

You must have patience. Be thankful you have work, and are out there shooting. Maintain your integrity, and eventually you will move up the "ladder". If you go out on your own, you may not like what's at the end of the road. Stay with a production company, let them do the leg work for you, and continue to impress them, and the clients with your work.

If the client isn't happy with the production company, and decides to use another company, they can mention that they liked working with you, and ask that production company if they could bring you on board for their project.
That, is how you move up the ladder.

Also, it's a good idea to do some research on some of the larger production companies(like Saatchi & Saatchi-they do Toyota and Yamaha-just to name a few clients), and look at some of their work. Find out what other production companies are in your area, or, are specializing in the kind of filming you're doing. Get your work out there, and when the clients start talking about your work, others will hear.
Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

What is your ultimate goal??

You asked for advice, and I have given mine.

Does doing one freelance shoot constitute "working for the production company?" I don't mean to sound snide, that's an honest question. Thanks for your response.

 

[Wilbur Eddings]

I encourage you to think further ahead than two jobs.

Think about your income as a freelance professional for years to come.

Word of mouth is your business card and in this business, a raised eyebrow can make you jobless quicker than you think.

 

[havasuphoto]

No, it doesn't. And you're not sounding snide. Maybe I mis-read your post.
My point was; if the production company had you do work for a particular client of theirs, then all future work with that client should be handled by the production company.
If the client requests that you do a project for them, without the production company, I would ask the production company how they wanted you to handle the situation. This situation happens more often than you think, and how you handle it with the production company will define your relationship with them in the future.

I got your point about the production company charging a lot, and paying you peanuts-that's what they do.
But, what is your role in the finished product?? Do you just shoot the video, and give the production company the clips?? Or, do you do everything, from start to finish??

 

[pulp]

No, it doesn't. And you're not sounding snide. Maybe I mis-read your post.
My point was; if the production company had you do work for a particular client of theirs, then all future work with that client should be handled by the production company.
If the client requests that you do a project for them, without the production company, I would ask the production company how they wanted you to handle the situation. This situation happens more often than you think, and how you handle it with the production company will define your relationship with them in the future.

I got your point about the production company charging a lot, and paying you peanuts-that's what they do.
But, what is your role in the finished product?? Do you just shoot the video, and give the production company the clips?? Or, do you do everything, from start to finish??

The other shooter and I will be doing everything, shooting and editing. I don't think the production company has any staff other than "organizers," people who speak to the clients and relay their needs to the video people they hire. They may even be more or less a one person operator, because I've only ever spoken to one woman, the "owner," who seems like a bit of a scatterbox.

 

[dust'n the callipygous]

I would talk to the production company about it. If nothing else, give the production company a nice Finder's fee for the next two jobs (the number already discussed that the production company was most likely expecting) for setting you up with the client in the first place. After those next two jobs, their implied contract with the production company would be up, so anything goes. That's just my opinion.

Either way, you sound like you don't want to get yourself into a bad situation, an you're looking out for everyone, so just make sure it's not mishandled no-matter the outcome.

 

[pulp]

I would talk to the production company about it. If nothing else, give the production company a nice Finder's fee for the next two jobs (the number already discussed that the production company was most likely expecting) for setting you up with the client in the first place. After those next two jobs, their implied contract with the production company would be up, so anything goes. That's just my opinion.

Either way, you sound like you don't want to get yourself into a bad situation, an you're looking out for everyone, so just make sure it's not mishandled no-matter the outcome.

I may just ask the client to contact the company as soon as possible and just tell them he's not interested in having them do the two upcoming shoots. Then we'll still be on good terms, and we can work with him directly, if that's what he wants.

 

[havasuphoto]

I may just ask the client to contact the company as soon as possible and just tell them he's not interested in having them do the two upcoming shoots. Then we'll still be on good terms, and we can work with him directly, if that's what he wants.

I wouldn't do that. But, that's just me.
I would contact the production company and let them handle everything. Sorry, but without a whole lot more information, there isn't a whole lot more advice I can give you.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[pulp]

I wouldn't do that. But, that's just me.
I would contact the production company and let them handle everything. Sorry, but without a whole lot more information, there isn't a whole lot more advice I can give you.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I'm not sure why I'd call the company to work this out. Their express purpose is to get paid a large sum, and then doll out part of that amount for the actual work to someone else. I'm fairly certain that's why the client doesn't want to work with them anymore, he sees how much involvement they have VS how much of the work we've done (IE, the client nor us, the shooters, have ever met the company owner, while we've done all the work the client has asked for) and wants to work with us directly. Calling them and saying "he doesn't want to work with you anymore, but he wants to work with us, is that alright?" sounds like a much worse idea than having him call them off for the shoot prior and bringing us in independently.

 

[milksac]

a client WANTS to work with me directly rather than through a production company (who really offers nothing other than organization, they don't do anything as far as shooting or editing, the shooter does all the work)

You're completely discounting the value of the production company because they didn't do any of the shooting or editing. They did something far more valuable than shooting or editing they delivered a client. To the freelancer a production company can be like a having a sales rep.; clients contact the production companies and the production companies hire the freelancers. If you work the relationship properly this can mean years of steady work. If you establish enough relationships with a bunch of production companies you can make a decent living.

If you had no prior relationship with the production company would you have ever met this client?

nor do they really offer any services other than connecting clients with shooters and taking the majority of the payment.

If you think you can provide better services at a better price for customers then you should open up your own business. Keep in mind that running your own business is far more complicated than being a freelancer. You will incur fees from accountants, lawyers, the IRS, insurance, rent, phone, general overhead, etc. When you add it all up it is very expensive to run your own business. In order to offset these expenses you charge accordingly. It is what is - it's business. Then to top it all off you have to worry about the freelancers you hire attempting to steal your clients.

It's not me going out of my way to undercut anyone

But you are undercutting as a strategy to gain work. This is a short term solution, it's not a sustainable business strategy. How could it be? Let's say you undercut the job to secure the work. And the next person follows the same strategy. Rinse and repeat until the day rates for production services decline enough to make it impossible to make a living wage doing production. The cold reality is that we are more or less in that cycle today. It's getting tougher to make a decent wage because of the low ball feeding frenzy happening with those just entering the market.

kids in high school or college students looking for anything they can get, that people can almost offer nothing and find someone to do a decent job.

If you can't offer your clients something better than "decent" you should get out while you can. The clients that expect no more than a "decent" job are always going to reward the work to the low bidder. These are the clients you don't want.
Your work needs to stand out. It needs to be better than everyone else. You need to have a good attitude. Show up on time, work hard, do whatever it takes to get the job done. If you can deliver those things you can work with the higher tier clients that are willing to pay more.
All of the people that I know in this business that have made a name for themselves are successful because of their talent, work ethic and attitude. It's not easy and there's no fast track to success.

As an exercise step out of your box and put yourself in the shoes of the production company. They need to hire somebody today for a shoot next week. There's 50 names on the call list. Do you want to be the guy they call because you will do it for less than anyone else? Do you want to be the guy they are willing to pay a little more because you do excellent work and are a pleasure to work with?

All I'm saying is, try to see the big picture. Don't do something that will serve you well for the next month, but may hurt you over the next 2 years.

 

[TimurCivan]

I would say, tell them to contact the origional company, bust ask for you specifically. Its ethically slippery to work directly for a client when you get hired by someone else. Plus you doing a great job, gives a bargaining chip for a better rate.

 

[pulp]

You're completely discounting the value of the production company because they didn't do any of the shooting or editing. They did something far more valuable than shooting or editing they delivered a client. To the freelancer a production company can be like a having a sales rep.; clients contact the production companies and the production companies hire the freelancers. If you work the relationship properly this can mean years of steady work. If you establish enough relationships with a bunch of production companies you can make a decent living.

If you had no prior relationship with the production company would you have ever met this client?


If you think you can provide better services at a better price for customers then you should open up your own business. Keep in mind that running your own business is far more complicated than being a freelancer. You will incur fees from accountants, lawyers, the IRS, insurance, rent, phone, general overhead, etc. When you add it all up it is very expensive to run your own business. In order to offset these expenses you charge accordingly. It is what is - it's business. Then to top it all off you have to worry about the freelancers you hire attempting to steal your clients.


But you are undercutting as a strategy to gain work. This is a short term solution, it's not a sustainable business strategy. How could it be? Let's say you undercut the job to secure the work. And the next person follows the same strategy. Rinse and repeat until the day rates for production services decline enough to make it impossible to make a living wage doing production. The cold reality is that we are more or less in that cycle today. It's getting tougher to make a decent wage because of the low ball feeding frenzy happening with those just entering the market.


If you can't offer your clients something better than "decent" you should get out while you can. The clients that expect no more than a "decent" job are always going to reward the work to the low bidder. These are the clients you don't want.
Your work needs to stand out. It needs to be better than everyone else. You need to have a good attitude. Show up on time, work hard, do whatever it takes to get the job done. If you can deliver those things you can work with the higher tier clients that are willing to pay more.
All of the people that I know in this business that have made a name for themselves are successful because of their talent, work ethic and attitude. It's not easy and there's no fast track to success.

As an exercise step out of your box and put yourself in the shoes of the production company. They need to hire somebody today for a shoot next week. There's 50 names on the call list. Do you want to be the guy they call because you will do it for less than anyone else? Do you want to be the guy they are willing to pay a little more because you do excellent work and are a pleasure to work with?

All I'm saying is, try to see the big picture. Don't do something that will serve you well for the next month, but may hurt you over the next 2 years.

I appreciate your response. Thanks.

I'll just say, most clients I experience put cost first and quality second. I wish this weren't the case, but it absolutely is. This production company also called me 2 days before the job. This is my first shoot with them, but I already understand why the client would be interested in taking out the middle man. I'm not undercutting them by choice: the client doesn't want to work with them anymore. However, he does want to work with us. So, I'm to force him to work through the company he isn't interested in working with, or deny him my services? This is one of the first clients I've run into who understands quality and is willing to pay for it, so I'd hate to turn him down.

 

[pulp]

I would say, tell them to contact the origional company, bust ask for you specifically. Its ethically slippery to work directly for a client when you get hired by someone else. Plus you doing a great job, gives a bargaining chip for a better rate.

I'm not too sure the company has other shooters, or works with people on a repeat basis. If the client doesn't WANT to work with the company, I'm missing out on his business entirely by staying with them.

 

[Mark Harris]

I agree with those encouraging you to deal with the prod company. It is seriously not cool to just cut them out. They own the relationship and if they did nothing shady or bad to you, it will reflect badly on you to do so.

Also, you should look at your contract with them. In my software world, many contracts with companies I sub to state that I agree to have no contact with their clients for an amount of time, explicitly for cases like this.

 

[pulp]

I agree with those encouraging you to deal with the prod company. It is seriously not cool to just cut them out. They own the relationship and if they did nothing shady or bad to you, it will reflect badly on you to do so.

Also, you should look at your contract with them. In my software world, many contracts with companies I sub to state that I agree to have no contact with their clients for an amount of time, explicitly for cases like this.

So, if the client wants out, I should turn down their work out of courtesy, despite the fact that this company probably won't be doing shoots in the future that they'd want us for?

There was no contract. These guys are bass-ackwards. They contacted me 2 days before the shoot and rushed all the details. She tried to call my references after 5pm the night before the shoot, when we were leaving at 6am to get there. We were still discussing a final sum after the shoot itself. The only reason I did it was because she specifically said via email "at least $(amount) her hour," and I figured if she tried to reneg on that, I'd have what is essentially a written agreement. But no, there is no contract what so ever.

 

[groveChuck]

The unwritten rule is freelancers don't steal clients from other freelancers or production companies.
You always say "Call them, but ask for me if it works out schedule-wise."
And see what you can work out with the company in this specific case.