FS7: Workflow for 4K origination

mainstreetprod

mainstreetprod

Veteran
I'm about to shoot a feature. I recently moved from the FS700 to the FS7 and plan to shoot in 4K (when the firmware update is released) , XAVC I. Normally I would transcode to Prores and use that to edit, but I've moved to Premiere CC from FCP and it is not exactly Prores friendly. So I'm thinking of editing natively in 4K XAVC , but not sure what I'll export to for the final master file. Suggestions?
 
Editing in 4K XAVC is a mistake. XAVC is a capture format, not a DI. Processing times will not allow rt timeline. There's a few good DI's besides Prores. I'd suggest Cineform 444.
 
Personally I would bring the 4K XAVC into Resolve, add a LUT or just some initial processing and then export something like ProRes LT XML. Cut that in PremiereCC. Round trip back to Resolve to grade and then bring the 4K into your app of choice to finish.

Ned Soltz
 
A couple of things.

1) No reason to edit in 4k . Pending how much raw material you have as the project gets bigger the data load increases slowing down performance this will be compounded with 4k formats. Generally transcode to a low Rez 'real frame' format like Pro Rez proxy or DNXHD 36. Edit away, on completion export the edl/timeline and the Relink to the original 4k files . Then go from there. Whilst it all seems counter intuitive in terms of workflow remember what you are effectively doing is foregoing '4k render tax' until towards the end of the process and not paying it all the way through the process, hence significant time savings even allowing for transcoding.

2) With Premier not sure this is a safe choice given there has been issues with 30min boot times with large projects and file corruption issues & yes I know "Gone Girl" was cut using it. If you adopt good practise and do time & date safety copies of everyday you may be alright. Also not sure about Premier "not liking Pro Rez " as I've never had a problem with it in this area.

So IMO I would continue with your existing workflow just adapt it for different platforms and codecs .
 
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Right on, Mike! Media Composer 8.3 will do "automatic" proxy files on the timeline, when using the new 4k codec, DNxHR. Alternatively, editing with an offline then finalizing to the hi rez original is the bomb.
 
cuervo said:
Right on, Mike! Media Composer 8.3 will do "automatic" proxy files on the timeline, when using the new 4k codec, DNxHR. Alternatively, editing with an offline then finalizing to the hi rez original is the bomb.
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Good to know. I've just upgraded to 8.3. So far I'm loving the new features that have allowed Avid to catch back up feature wise.
 
Thanks all for the tips. I assumed that transcoding to a more editable format and later relinking to original 4k files was the way to go, just have no idea how it's done. Looks like there are a lot of other alternatives. When I say Premiere CC is not Prores friendly I mean that the codec is not built in. Does the free version of Resolve have it?
 
Do a test trail of a scene,

1) transcode footage keeping the same file extensions as the camera files. ( remember if you want add to notes , circle takes etc. this is done within the metadata stream & not in the clip name)!

2) edit away when finished move to the next stage.

3) pending which platform your using next, re linking can be as simple as change the sequence presets from SD/hd to 4k then disconnecting the hard drive with the low Rez material and connecting the HD with 4k originals ( with the exact same file extensions) and relinking to that drive.

P.S. Its very simple in Resolve .....which brings up the possibility of doing the entire edit & grade within the new Resolve 11.
( Free software ) Could be risky as it is unproven at this stage but should work with basic cut edits.

Also I assume from your text you are editing on a PC system so this may explain issues QT pro Rez issues, as it's not a problem within Apple systems.
 
mainstreetprod said:
Thanks all for the tips. I assumed that transcoding to a more editable format and later relinking to original 4k files was the way to go, just have no idea how it's done. Looks like there are a lot of other alternatives. When I say Premiere CC is not Prores friendly I mean that the codec is not built in. Does the free version of Resolve have it?
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You should be able to open prores on Premiere CC no problem even if on a PC. It's creating prores files that you need to be on a MAC for. Same with Davinci Resolve, ProRes output is possible but only on a MAC.


Personally if you have the horsepower to edit in 4K then do it, later you can render to any resolution you want.

For the 4K projects I work on we're usually editing 2K versions knowing we can replace the source files with 4K versions if needed to render a 4K output. So far the need to render a 4K output has not been substantial, so if you edit 4K natively you will use extra time processing unnecessarily.

Just something to think about.
 
I'm on a 2013 iMac with 16gb of ram. Premiere CC has no built in Prores export that I can find, any help enabling that would be appreciated. This feature film will be available on DVD and of course 2K is fine for that, 4k will be preferable to create a DCP for theater release, a first for us. My normal workflow is to change the clip filename to the scene number so that could be an issue when trying to relink later.
 
Sorry when you said no support I wasn't sure if you meant opening or exporting.

As for relinking all I do is rename folders containing the 2k or 4k footage that I want to trick Premiere into using. Works for me every time.
 
I do believe you need to install Final Cut Pro to get ProRes export formats on your computer. You might be able to download it another way but I remember having to reformat and not finding the ProRes formats and installed Final Cut and it showed up.
 
mainstreetprod said:
I'm on a 2013 iMac with 16gb of ram. Premiere CC has no built in Prores export that I can find, any help enabling that would be appreciated. This feature film will be available on DVD and of course 2K is fine for that, 4k will be preferable to create a DCP for theater release, a first for us. My normal workflow is to change the clip filename to the scene number so that could be an issue when trying to relink later.
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As others have mentioned, start in Resolve, export something that Premiere can edit easily, and then relink to the original camera files in Resolve. ProRes is nice but it is not the be all/end all that some would lead you to believe. Resolve should handle XAVC-I with no problem. I do Resolve to Avid but you should be able to search the Internet for an article on Resolve to Premiere round tripping.

What you export from Resolve for a deliverable or transcoding depends of course on whether you are going to TV, web, Cinema, etc. With additional licenses you can even create a DCP package from Resolve.

BE AWARE, Resolve Lite can only EXPORT UHD and below. If you want to export any DCI 4K footage from Resolve a license (1k US$) will be needed.

Not sure why you don't have ProRes on a Mac but the install FCP answer should work.

Happy Shooting and looking forward to a clip from the movie,
Robert
 
So what are some good DI instead of XAVC? My Trashcan Mac Pro can work with XAVC fine, so I don't see the need for more transcoding and more space.
 
Other than real time playback issues, working in a format like XAVC creates generational losses every time you render a new timeline sequence. Roundtripping to an external app like Resolve, or even rendering FX on your timeline, will produce generational losses. In short XAVC, even if it acceptably works on your NLE, is a poor workflow practice. A single initial render to a good (near) lossless digital intermediate is the recommended workflow. There's really a lot of choices available, depending, I suppose on which DI your NLE of choice recommends. There is Cineform, ProRes, DNxHD, DNxHR, plus others I don't routinely use, like BlackMagic's or AJA's. Even DI's have drawbacks. Like Prores, for example, will cause compression artifacts in high motion areas of your footage. So, really, which DI to use is determined more by the nature of the footage than by NLE native preference. If you're truly concerned about using up disk space by transcoding to a DI, then I would suggest working with an offline low rez proxy format, like DNx36, then going to the final hi rez resolution only for the final master. A good DI should give the editor a choice of datarates that allow decent offlining. Both ProRes and DNxHD/HR allow this. All I can suggest is that an editor try all of them, pixel peep and make his/her own choice. As for myself, my preference is DNxHD, which has been superceded by DNxHR. There is also a Kickstarter effort on a new open source DI called ".MOX, which has a lot of promise, especially since it's open source. The problem with any of these existing DI's is the proprietary nature of each of them. No one knows exactly what convolution/deconvolution algorithms go into each. But, regardless, editing in a highly compressed capture format is really a poor practice, if you're really interested in maintaining the quality of your final master. As a side note, it usually takes a lot longer to render out XAVC like formats than a working DI, to the final master or to each generational render, so working in a DI should go much more smoothly than forcing your NLE and CPU to handle a highly compressed capture format.
 
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cuervo said:
Other than real time playback issues, working in a format like XAVC creates generational losses every time you render a new timeline sequence. Roundtripping to an external app like Resolve, or even rendering FX on your timeline, will produce generational losses. In short XAVC, even if it acceptably works on your NLE, is a poor workflow practice. A single initial render to a good (near) lossless digital intermediate is the recommended workflow.
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So there seems to be some confusion as to the workflow. What many of us do is start in Resolve or other package that will let us reconnect (relink) to the original camera files when we have finished the edit. The term Roundtripping means export to the edit program and then back to connect to the originals. Yes, I know edits are never really finished, just abandoned;-) So what you use to edit only needs to be something that performs well in your edit package and is supported for roundtripping. Many big features are still edited in DNxHD36 because it is small and fast. All codecs have generational loss, but so called 'visually lossless" codecs such as ProRes and DNxHD do normally suffer less.

There may also be some confusion as to XAVC. When saying XAVC one needs to be more specific. Sony has at least three major versions as in I, G, and S. I is the default in the FS7. I is an intraframe codec so each frame is compressed individually. G and S are log gop in which the compression involves groups of frames. I does not suffer from generational loss and artifacting to the degree that G and S may.

Does Catalyst Browse or Prepare let one reconnect to the camera originals?

Hope that helps,
Robert
 
infohou said:
Does Catalyst Browse or Prepare let one reconnect to the camera originals?

Hope that helps,
Robert
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Round-tripping can be either way, resolve to media composer or back again. in either direction, there's always the option to reconnect to the original media. And, AFAIK, it doesn't matter whether you're on long GOP XAVC or Intraframe, they're all GPU intensive and lossy.
 
In regards to the lack of QT pro res . It's a long time ago since I did it but from memory you can download the QT app. direct from Apple. You will want both versions the latest QT version & v7 ( as this version has image sequence applications which apple abandoned in the later version ... Go figure)

Anyway it's along time since I need it so not sure if it's available from apple downloads or their app. Store. This should solve your no pro Rez situation and premier should run fine then with QT .

P.s there are ways to rename camera files to scene numbers , takes etc. whilst preserving the original camera file extension handles for relinking , all depends on the NLE your using , do some research with avid it's easy , Fcpx it's metadata. Premier not sure about.
 
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