HPX250: With everything you all know about this camera...would you still purchase it?

[valladao65]

I'm as close as I can be to pulling the trigger on this camera. I have an old HVX200 that is driving me crazy with the low-light noise and this camera seems to be coming along at just the right time for me.
So, with the AF issue that's been discussed and all other thoughts around this camera, are those of you who have purchased one of these camera still happy about your decision?


I'm a little nervous and would love a little push to get me over the hump on buying one...

Thanks everyone.

 

[LiamR]

Yes, it's such a great camera, I believe it's quite under rated and still being pushed aside for EX1's, which comes down to taste, but this camera destroys the EX1 (in my opinion), I had some fairly high expectations coming into this purchase, I had an FS100 previously and apart from the Sensor in the FS100, the HPX on paper was a much superior camera. I have struggled with the HPX in low-light OUTDOOR conditions (I don't use 180 deg shutter speeds). It's not a very sensitive camera (but I am coming from the overly sensitive FS100), I have however, found that I can shoot well under-exposed and bring it back SO MUCH in post.

For example:

Before

After

The original in that shot is shooting with the camera wide open, no ND filters on, shutter at 1/250th and PAP2.

There are a couple of BIG gripes I have with this camera, these may or may not only concern my style of shooting.

1. White Balance, I have mentioned this before and it rather annoy's me, but I can't manually dial in my WB?? I can either go with Auto WB or choose from 2 presets, 5.6k and 3.2k, neither of which are ideal, I need something around 4.5k...
2. Why on earth do I have to turn the camera off when changing from 1080 24p to 720 60p??? If there is an actual reason, I would like to know.
3. Wait no, that's it.

I really love this camera, picture looks a million bucks, it's as light as a feather, easy to function and delivers time and time again.

 

[aalleexx]

I have an hmc150 and have shot under those similar conditions of the biker you have there, on an overcast day, similar shutter, how is it that you are wide open with no ND filters on? I remember I had to be like at f5.6 for decent exposure

Yes, it's such a great camera, I believe it's quite under rated and still being pushed aside for EX1's, which comes down to taste, but this camera destroys the EX1 (in my opinion), I had some fairly high expectations coming into this purchase, I had an FS100 previously and apart from the Sensor in the FS100, the HPX on paper was a much superior camera. I have struggled with the HPX in low-light OUTDOOR conditions (I don't use 180 deg shutter speeds). It's not a very sensitive camera (but I am coming from the overly sensitive FS100), I have however, found that I can shoot well under-exposed and bring it back SO MUCH in post.

For example:

Before

After

The original in that shot is shooting with the camera wide open, no ND filters on, shutter at 1/250th and PAP2.

There are a couple of BIG gripes I have with this camera, these may or may not only concern my style of shooting.

1. White Balance, I have mentioned this before and it rather annoy's me, but I can't manually dial in my WB?? I can either go with Auto WB or choose from 2 presets, 5.6k and 3.2k, neither of which are ideal, I need something around 4.5k...
2. Why on earth do I have to turn the camera off when changing from 1080 24p to 720 60p??? If there is an actual reason, I would like to know.
3. Wait no, that's it.

I really love this camera, picture looks a million bucks, it's as light as a feather, easy to function and delivers time and time again.

 

[valladao65]

Thanks Liam,

When you say the sensor is not very sensitive, I'm guessing that you're talking about light levels and not noise, correct?
The shots you put up seem dark but clean, but its hard to tell on a still how clean the footage is.

I just read one of your other posts where Barry chimed in with praise for this camera, so I do feel better about pulling the trigger.
Thanks for that too.

 

[rzr219]

I was also worried about the low light and auto focus, but after having it I have very little issue. If you can keep the Y-GET at 70% you will not have a AF issue. I use my in PAP1 as I shot stage performances and the light is very low. I shoot at 1080 @24p and do a 180 shutter and keep it around f4 max. No noise at all, I can got higher but I dont need to. With the new firmware update to focus in red you almost dont need a 2nd monitor (I have one, but now I dont bring it along much, unless I want to impress my client). I also did some on the fly shooting last minute at 720p AVC50 and the footage looks great full auto as it was run and gun, and a few jumps every so often. I really love it and am glad I make the switch. I did buy allot of spare batteries used and I get the same life as the new ones, saved me about 50% on each. Great camera so many features I am still playing each time to get the shoot right in camera so I dont have to play with post.

 

[LiamR]

@aalleexx Like I said, I shoot at higher shutter speeds, for example 1/250th of a second is my lowest cut off point and preferred shutter to use on the HPX250, different cameras deal with motion different, on the FS100 I never shot below 1/2000th of a second.

@valladao65 The sensor isn't as sensitive as the Super35 one in the FS100, for example you could go up to 18db on the FS100 and find it quite hard to notice any area's with noise, even in the darkest blacks, but if I dared go to 18db on the HPX250, the footage would be unusable.

Let me also just keep it in perspective that I shoot in PaP 2 mode, which is 6db darker than PaP 1, I shoot in this setting as it deals with motion better, shooting in PaP 1 with lot's of pans and quick movements, results in more noise.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

The $4.5K investment paid off as I was able to get shots that would otherwise be impossible to capture w/ 2/3" 1080p camera - mostly thanks to HPX250's small form factor. There're advantages to small form factor camera such as HPX250 as I can carry it almost everywhere I go. I see that the current trend is 1080p CMOS. As for personal pref, I still prefer the CCD look as it has a much better rendition of the overall picture, particularly the HPX3100 & 3700 series. Qualitywise, you can't compare the HPX250 w/ their 2/3" 1080p CCD cams and $45K 22x or high quality broadcast lens. The overall richness of the footage is very hard to beat on a 2/3" cam. It's still the king if video quality is paramount. The biggest issues w/ HPX250 are fast tracking and focus on fast action subject. Wildlife, sports, or other activities, I have to switch to 2/3". The ultra fine control and focus ability on 2/3" cams are unrivaled - just the viewfinder itself is the cost of the HPX250! Servo focus and zoom are also critical features for those type of productions. W/ out using 3rd party zoom controllers, I find that zoom in/out is pretty much useless as I can't do a ease in/out or super craw speed (seesaw servo zoom w/ 16-bit precision). The red focus firmware update helps, but doesn't cure the problem as I find it so hard to focus and track fast moving object. But general, non critical stop action tracking shot, I can use this cam and have a peace of mind that it will be inter cuttable as they both use the same AVC I 100 codec. All of these are possible only with weeks of DSC test chart shoots and parameter adjustments for both 1/3 & 2/3" cameras. If you were to shoot it out of the factory defaults, pretty much forget it as it's way too far off.

There's a huge leap fr. HX200 to this. I was able to see a side by side comparison last couple weeks in shooting C-roll footage for a sporting event. The HVX200's viewfinder is way too blurry vs. HPX250's sharper LCOS. I mean I can rely on the flip out LCD to focus at last! I looked carefully at the 1080i and it's pretty bad vs. HPX250. Sadly, had to discard numerous HVX200 footage as it's just not sharp enough when intercutting w/ HPX250.

I'd pay $1,200 just for the true SMPTE TC alone found on this cam. If it sells for $5K, I'll pay $6.2K. Robust SMPTE tc i/o via BNC is another huge feature w/ this cam. Although it only records in 16-bit vs. 24 bit for the HPX3K series cam, it's quite a useful cam for adding another 2 tracks of audio in the field - and all frame accurate sync w/ TC. No more Mickey Mousing with the use smart slate fr Deneke or Ambient, 2nd LTC audio channel to send TC data, or fiddling w/ firewire based sync TC that's not frame accurate. This is another hidden gem.

And if you don't want to spend $2.5K on the AG-MSU10 P2 offloader, this cam can serve as an alternative P2 offloader w/ full verification. It saved me on numerous shoots where I don't have enough time to offload many 64 Gb P2s.


>>>>> 1. White Balance, I have mentioned this before and it rather annoy's me, but I can't manually dial in my WB?? I can either go with Auto WB or choose from 2 presets, 5.6k and 3.2k, neither of which are ideal, I need something around 4.5k...
2. Why on earth do I have to turn the camera off when changing from 1080 24p to 720 60p??? If there is an actual reason, I would like to know.
3. Wait no, that's it. <<

1/ Manual dial in of WB parameters in increment of 100 Kelvin is found on the HPX3K series.
2/ I have to turn off the camera on the HPX3K series to do a rec mode change to fr HD to SD for example. Not big deal. Few minutes of wait time won't kill me.
3/ Added note: The HPX250, you can amazingly change scene file while in rec mode. The HPX3K series, you have to pause the recording and go to menu and do it.
No DRS in AVC-I 24 or 30 pN, but in 60i on the HPX250. This is very bad as I shoot mostly in Pn modes. The HPX3K series, you can do DRS in all modes.
And of course, no Film Rec gamma in HPX250. This is a huge feature for doing color grading and wild life stuff. But Cine D is there. Not the same, but still gradable in Da Vinci.
HPX250's outdoor preset wb is not so great either. It either too much or way off and never close. I pretty much have to manual wb all the times, in the shade or 2-3 hrs w/ regular sunlight. ATW is OK, but like any other ATW, it changes as camera pans. HPX3K, the preset WB (5.6K, 6.3K) works 90% of the time for daytime shoot. Early morning to near sunset, preset WB is quite accurate. I guess it has much better color matrix circuits and controls.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

Some real world prod. sample .JPGs fr HPX250 and its bigger 2/3" brother.

Quality is pretty decent for wide angle shot at a remote creek location. A bit soft, but better than not having footage at all.
If you look closely, there are quite a few chromatic aberrations on the distant sky. This is probably due to cheap optics.
But overall it's not bad and can intercut nicely w/ the main 2/3" cam.

The hike was several miles long and any camera bigger than HPX-250 is pretty much too tiring me to carry. HPX250 saved the day!
Got the shot and that what ultimately matters.

I'm limited to static, pan left right w/ the HPX-250. The super creep and ease in/out zoom is pretty much useless. It's just not slow enough nor eases in/out.
But the bottom line is that I rather have the content than none at all. Small form factor is perhaps the biggest asset w/ the HPX250.

The HPX250 doesn't work well when shoot involve w/ critical focus and focus tracking, particularly wildlife subjects. Here bigger
cam and super telephoto lens are needed to fully track the unpredictable wildlife subject.

The red color focus assist sometimes is very confusing to shoot. It's either the background or foreground is in focus. What's so hard
is that when the animal moves, red color actually impairs the overall tracking ability. In wild life shoot where one would wait for hours to catch that animal,
I can't afford to miss any moment. Hence red focus is just not helping out as such scenario. I also tried to red focus w/ a distant hawk - virtually
impossible to get a nice continuous & in focus tracking shot. Furthermore, the lens is just not fast enough and virtually impossible to do a tracking focus on tight shots. F/stop ramping
also makes it extremely limiting. If I zoom in all the way on HPX250, I have to gradually increase the iris otherwise it'll be dark. During track & focus, it's just
to hard to have all 3 fingers working at the same time.

In the 2/3" world, it's very easy to achieve accurate tracking focus. Panasonic also has their 2/3" focus assist version with a bar graph. It helps even further also.

 

[valladao65]

Thanks lonewolf,

The first and last screenshots from the HPX250 are not impressive and making me want to run out to purchase the camera. I know it's not really fair to compare the wide shots from the 250 with shots from that very expensive Fujinon lens on the 500- which I guess is what you're using there...but still, it's good to see real world shots.
I heard the local Panny dealer just got one of the 250's in, so I think I'll go down and take a look in person.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

If you're shooting scenics natural lighting, magic hours range (early morning, just before sunset) will look at its best. But most other day situations, it needs lot of post color grading to get a decent final look OR shoot closer shot. Cine D gamma looks very flat and washed out. After color grading, it will be pretty good. But as-is raw footage can be misleading. If I were to use the regular HD gamma, it will look like a baked in the camera and therefore will be improved. What most important for color grading is sharpness and detail. From there colors can be adjusted easily. Film Rec gamma on Varicam series camera actually looks only a bit washed out. It's completely different from Cine D.

Highly advisable to have the dealer give you a day for a loaner evaluation shoot. This way you'll know how well or not well it performs. For my business, the camera works because I can color grade in Da Vinci it and get it similar (not exact) to 2/3" cam. Granted, the lens is not the best at extreme wide or closeup. All of the details setting were set to their max of +7.

I used HPX3100 and HPX3700 for the wildlife shots. I used the HPX-500 years ago. Unfortunately it is no where close to the HPX3000 series cam in picture quality. It has similar look to the HVX200 - a bit muddy in its color rendition. I have plenty of footage shot w/ the HPX-500 to backup my opnion. With the same HD lens, the SDX900, HDX900 blows the HPX500 away. Some like it, others don't. For me, I prefer the SDX900, HDX900, HPX2K, HPX3K series look. Panasonic rep told me that the models I mentioned Panasonic really put extra efforts in DSP circuit to get that broadcast look. All other models are just prosumer grade. That's why there's a $15-30K price different fr. the base model.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

More sharper examples of HPX250 along w/ HPX3100 at the same location.

The lizard shot is actually much sharper. But I had to be close to the subject and use the sweet spot of the lens, which was somewhere in the middle.
In wildlife, you can be killed or injured if you're too close to the animal (especially snakes, lion, etc). So it's a rare case where I can get in closer.

Based on Barry's recommendation to shoot at f/4 or higher, it's quite hard to get everything in focus at f/4. I didn't have the chance to shoot at f/11-16.
A not so great focus example of the tree is shown to how dangerously shallow DOF is at f/4 on the HPX250. Shooter has to be extra careful for medium-wide shot to be in focus.
It's so hard to see if it's focus or not when you're on location exhausted from the hike or there's lots of ambient light. The red assist is not quite helpful where there're numerous details in the shot. I should of have shot fr f/11-f/16 to get more DOF. But again, Barry mentioned anything beyond f/4 is going against diffraction limit on a 1/3" sensor. Didn't bother to do it.

The HPX3K cam shots are included as reference. It's pretty sharp and has a richer tonality look w/ out any color grading. The super wide angle lens allows greater field of view.
There's no issue w/ sharpness on the super wide angle 2/3" lens even at f/2.8. It's clear and I can see the small leaves detail. This was shot somewhere at f/5.6. After using
several other HPX250s, I can say that at widest zoom range, it's not ideal. This is the case for the wide shot at the beach and the mountain. It's soft and a bit blurry when there's not enough light.

Mentioned earlier, HPX250's 5.6K preset is not so great. It's off as seen on the lizard frame grab. It's a bit yellowish. The HPX3K series cam preset 5.6K is much more reasonable throughout the day. It simply handles direct sun and shaded scenes much better than the HPX250's preset.

SUMMARY for best results:

Zoom range should be around 25-75%. f/open - f/4.

Don't try to do extreme shoot w/ this cam as it's just not designed for it. If anyone can show me that they can track a fast moving subject or animal [moving toward the cam or sideway] and keep it 90-95% in near perfect focus at f/2.8 - 4, I will be extremely impressed. But so far it's just extremely hard to achieve it, especially if you have a subject that only occur once in a while (wildlife work).

 

[Philip Goetz]

I know the original poster is going to his local camera shop to have a look, which is totally awesome... but... if he wants to buy from a DVXuser sponsor and the guy who made this

https://vimeo.com/29509312

and this:

https://vimeo.com/29569326

We have it in stock.

http://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-HPX250-P2-Handheld-Camera_p_4480.html

Last week we were shipping cameras for $4395 and now the are up to $5250. I have no idea what happened. Bad week to buy...

 

[BillinSC]

I bought the camera a few months ago, and at first I let a bunch of stuff question my purchase. Having taken the time to read, listen, and ask questions here in these forums, I am happy that I bought the HPX250. This camera offers much, but you have to take some time to learn how to use it effectively. I would buy the same camera all over again without question. For the cost I do not think you will beat the quality of the image, capabilities, or service.

This camera has another strength that some folks do not mention and that is the ability to switch formats for North America or Europe. Not all cameras do that. The 4:2:2 recording on portable cards is huge as well. In the end, it is a tool. Only you know what type of tool you would like. As for the focus, I have not found much difficulty. Others who use their camera more heavily may have a different view. Again, with any camera that you purchase, you need to know how to maximize its' potential.

Sincerely,
Bill

 

[inefab]

Just to tell that the pictures in this post are not AVC I 100 RAW Unprocessed blablala... this is JPG resized pictures and jpg's artifacts are clearly visible.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

I'm unable to post uncompressed .TIFFs. JPEGs only. There's no img proc. P2 mxf - AVC Intra MOV Log & Transfer in FCP7. Frame extraction and text overlay. That's it. Nothing else done to it. JPEG was at high quality. All is at 1920x1080 sq pixel.

Real world: I'd expect an immediate 40-50% more compression & reduction in quality if it was to be broadcast in 1080i. In other words, the nasty artifacts will be even more visible than the ones on the .JPGs. There's no way that the full fidelity of AVC-I 100 can be realized. Bandwidth is too scarce now. I've seen this first hand w/ a live, uncompressed feed gets butchered down w/ no mercy as soon as it's broadcasted.

The static JPEG samples are not a good final indication. Most concern is the inter frames performance on the final home viewing feed. Intra frames are handled quite well w/ the AVC-I codec already.

 

[valladao65]

Thanks everyone,

My local dealer sucks. I had asked to see the camera on Tuesday and they said they were putting it together and will have it ready to be 'seen' on Wednesday or Thursday. So I called on Thursday and they said they have given the camera out on demo for a week. Seriously?
I had spent a boat load of cash with them previously and they couldn't wait? Ugh. So anyway... I'll be purchasing the camera on-line and I've heard good things the Texas Media guys as one of my clients used to live in Texas and swore by you guys. That plus you're a dvxuser group sponsor!


Beyond that, Ive been looking around at video shot with the camera and have yet to be impressed all that much by anything (although the guy who did the mini helicopter example posted here did a great job of editing and being creative- good stuff!). I'm doing a huge project now that is heavily dependent on playing with light- sunrises, sunsets, HUGE dynamic range issues- candlelight - heavy fall off - all the things that the HVX is terrible at. So i need to make a decision and go with it soon. I just wish I could get my hands on one of these cameras first. We have a new-ish shop here in Phoenix that I'm going to go have a look and see if they might have one of these cameras in stock. They aren't certified by Panny, but desperate times...

I'm so heavily invested in P2 right now that I really don't want to go outside of that format unless i really have to. Although, the new Sony PMW200 sounds awesome- but the latest greatest always does- and, reality is always just a bit different than when specs are announced.

I'm beginning to think that I'm just being unrealistic and I can always fix it in post- ugh.

Thanks for all the advice in any case!

Mike

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

I only wish Pana resumes their 1/2" cam product line. But it's long discontinued, That'd be the best way to go for many indie prod houses. I still don't understand why the shoulder mount version HPX370 is still 1/3"? If that's in 1/2", it'll be a very hot selling cam to the Sony EX series. AVC-I 100 really pushes the limit of 1/3" sensor to the max. Perhaps a 1/2" HPX-400 sometime next couple years to take full advantage of AVC-I 100 or AVC-U 200?

Sony is definitely attacking Pana's 1/3" with their 1/2" on the PMW-200 and EX series. W/ 1/2" sensor, I can at least shoot with something like f/5.6 to get detailed wide shots and still within the diffraction limit of the sensor. f/4 is just too hard to keep everything in focus on wider shot.







<<I'm beginning to think that I'm just being unrealistic and I can always fix it in post- ugh.>>>

 

[valladao65]

Philip,

You're killing me with this!
900 bucks in a week.
Brutal.

*sigh*

 

[LiamR]

Cine D gamma looks very flat and washed out. After color grading, it will be pretty good.

Cine D flat? bah, who are you tryin' to kid...