Will this workflow keep good quality?

[shawn.w]

Hey Everyone,

Ive got a large project (around 10 hours of footage) that i need to edit down to 5 separate videos, each being around 2 - 5 mins. The footage is half interviews, done against green screen, that need to be keyed. And half B-roll footage that will be used when the people hit a relevant topic.

I'll need to export the project for the web and DVD. I shot everything on a Panasonic HMC150, at 720 30P. Here is how im thinking of editing:

- Bring AVCHD files into Adobe Premiere Pro CS4

- Edit down to a rough cut

- Export the sequence as cineform from PPro. (the footage is converted through the same process and quality as if it had been done through HDlink right?)(can i use TMPGEnc 4.0 Express for this export?)

- Import that cineform file into After Effects CS4. Do all color correction, grading, text, effects, and green screen keying.

- Export from After Effects as Cineform

- Import back into PPro for any final tweaks

- Export Cineform file from PPro

- Convert to web and DVD formats using TMPGEnc 4.0 Express (was told this was better than exporting to web and DVD straight out of PPro.


I didnt use Dynamic Link between PPro and AE in this outline because many people have told me it is unstable on larger projects.

It seems like my process requires me to export and import a lot, but ive been told working with a rendered file is much easier than trying to import a sequence from PPro into AE or anything like that. Im new at all of this stuff though so please feel free to give me any recommendations. Thanks!

- Shawn

 

[PDR]

- Bring AVCHD files into Adobe Premiere Pro CS4

Just to clarify, are you importing native AVCHD?

Just be aware that PP (and AE) have an interlaced chroma bug with native AVCHD footage (even native progressive pN footage). You can do a quick search, there are several threads outlining this issue. So I would import cineform (converted from HDlink) if possible

For your rough cut sequences that need to be keyed, you might be able do those edits in AE to save some steps, depending on how it was shot, and what kind of edits you were planning on doing

 

[oneinfiniteloop]

Why don't you try Dynamic Link yourself and test out a workflow to see if it...works. Can't really trust what other people say, not that they're wrong, but different horses for different course, you know?

That'd be the most lossless way to move back and forth. While I don't normally use the Cineform codec, if it's of quality, I wouldn't be concerned especially considering your source material isn't as robust.

Generally you'd not edit in AVCHD because it's processor intensive, but, again, that's dependent on many different factors, so your mileage will vary.

Keep in mind that you'll have to probably export each edit separately to key properly, etc in AE. That's the benefit of Dynamic Link. Everything comes over (as far as I know, we use FCP and Auto Duck, similar setup). You can also use scripts like Magnum the Edit Detector, which I've heard works pretty well.

 

[shawn.w]

Just to clarify, are you importing native AVCHD?

Just be aware that PP (and AE) have an interlaced chroma bug with native AVCHD footage (even native progressive pN footage). You can do a quick search, there are several threads outlining this issue. So I would import cineform (converted from HDlink) if possible

For your rough cut sequences that need to be keyed, you might be able do those edits in AE to save some steps, depending on how it was shot, and what kind of edits you were planning on doing

Yes in my proposed workflow I would be importing the AVCHD files my Panasonic HMC150 shoots into PPro CS4, then once I have a rough cut done, exporting that as Cineform.

I would like to do this for two reasons. #1 Ill end up having 10 - 15 hours of footage on this project, and converting everything from the start to cineform seems like a huge waste when ill only end up using 4 mins of it in a rough cut. Also backing all the cineform files up would be huge. #2 cineform is having a problem with my 720 30p footage right now, and support is working on a patch for it. If i use my method of editing AVHCD then exporting to cineform once ive got a rough cut done, Ill be able to start editing right away and get this project done sooner.


How would this interlaced chroma bug affect my workflow? I wouldent want to start any rough cuts in AE, I would like to build a rough or final edit in PPro, then go from there to AE for all my effects. Unless simply importing the AVHCD files into PPro CS4 is going to bug them out forever, i dont see what the difference would be between editing cineform from the start, and exporting to cineform on my trip into AE? Except i save a ton of space and time by only converting 4 mins of footage rather than 10 - 15 hours.



"Generally you'd not edit in AVCHD because it's processor intensive, but, again, that's dependent on many different factors, so your mileage will vary.

Keep in mind that you'll have to probably export each edit separately to key properly, etc in AE. That's the benefit of Dynamic Link. Everything comes over (as far as I know, we use FCP and Auto Duck, similar setup). You can also use scripts like Magnum the Edit Detector, which I've heard works pretty well."



Ive got a pretty nice computer so AVCHD editing isnt a problem at all.

When you say Ill have to export each edit separately, do you mean each sequence? If so thats what i was expecting. But if you mean ill have to export each clip separately, im in big trouble, unless there's a batch exporter, that sounds really tedious.

 

[PDR]

How would this interlaced chroma bug affect my workflow?

Native AVCHD decoding in CS4 is broken. It affects you because you will get a bad key. Apparently this also affects FCP users as well. Do a quick search, it's been discussed in a few threads. It's a serious problem, and Barry Green has reported it to Adobe. Look below in the screenshot example and compare the edges, especially the fan edge...

And I agree you should give Dynamic Link a shot. Just because several people have had issues with it (myself included), doesn't mean you will. It might have been system config. issues for example. Just remember to do frequent saves

 

[shawn.w]

Native AVCHD decoding in CS4 is broken. It affects you because you will get a bad key.

But I would only be using AVCHD to narrow down my clips into a rough cut, then exporting to cineform. So i wouldent be doing any effects work on the AVCHD footage. After i exported to cineform i would bring that into AE and do all my effects stuff in AE on the cineform files. Therefore i dont see how the AVCHD decoding in CS4 affects my workflow?

 

[PDR]

But I would only be using AVCHD to narrow down my clips into a rough cut, then exporting to cineform. So i wouldent be doing any effects work on the AVCHD footage. After i exported to cineform i would bring that into AE and do all my effects stuff in AE on the cineform files. Therefore i dont see how the AVCHD decoding in CS4 affects my workflow?

Remember , it has to be decoded in order to be encoded. If your decoding is broken, it will pass the errors on in your workflow. Everything from then on will have the errors. You will get a bad key. Not only that, your regular footage will be lower in quality.

Premiere "thinks" the progressive footage is interlaced, and the chroma looks interlaced. This has been confirmed with all types of footage, not just 1 camera/model, and even on 24pN footage.


Here is another example that isn't green screen (this is 30p in 60i wrapper from HF10)

As for the other workflow point, you could try dynamic link for the whole project (after importing cineform clips); the worst case scenario would be it doesn't work and you lose a bit of work (just do frequent saves). You could still export the whole thing as cineform, then import that into AE (you still might have to split layers to do separate keys)

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

But I would only be using AVCHD to narrow down my clips into a rough cut, then exporting to cineform. So i wouldent be doing any effects work on the AVCHD footage. After i exported to cineform i would bring that into AE and do all my effects stuff in AE on the cineform files. Therefore i dont see how the AVCHD decoding in CS4 affects my workflow?

I don't know what your machine is, but on my Mac Book Pro 17" (older version) I was not able to really play AVCHD material 'natively' well enough to even use CS4 Premiere as a cutting stand...

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Native AVCHD decoding in CS4 is broken. It affects you because you will get a bad key. Apparently this also affects FCP users as well. Do a quick search, it's been discussed in a few threads. It's a serious problem, and Barry Green has reported it to Adobe. Look below in the screenshot example and compare the edges, especially the fan edge...

And I agree you should give Dynamic Link a shot. Just because several people have had issues with it (myself included), doesn't mean you will. It might have been system config. issues for example. Just remember to do frequent saves

What is 'dynamic link', and in your examples the caption has "libavcodec", which looks like it's part of the GPL video set of processing tools.

 

[PDR]

What is 'dynamic link', and in your examples the caption has "libavcodec", which looks like it's part of the GPL video set of processing tools.

Dynamic link is part of the Adobe Suite that allows integration between software directly e.g. Premiere and AE or Encore (so you don't have to export something and re-import it)

Correct, libavcodec is part of the library that is open source and part of GPL like ffmpeg. That example just was to show correct decoding vs. incorrect decoding. I could have just as easily used another decoder, like coreavc, or Divx h.264

In this case I accessed it through FFDShow. Premiere has an avisynth import plugin so you can use avisynth with Premiere. Cineform's HDLink uses directshow decoding, so it will decode the native AVCHD depending on what decoder you select. Other testing has shown it's not the actual decoder that is the problem, but the API with Premiere. (e.g. you can use Mainconcept's h.264 decoder, which is the same one Adobe has licenced, and get correct decoding; it's only when you open native AVCHD or h.264 footage through AME, AE or Premiere, that the bug occurs)

The decoding bug has been disscussed in several threads (here and on other forums), and reported to Adobe. So far no patches

 

[shawn.w]

Thanks for letting me know about this PDR, you've been a huge help to me in my time on this forum, i appreciate it.



Interesting, so if I were to bring a native AVCHD clip into PPro CS4 (a 1080 60i off my Panasonic hmc150), then export that from PPro as cineform, then import that into AE and try to key, i should get bad results?

Or at least i should get much better results if i bring a cineform file into PPro, dynamic link or export that into AE and try to key it?

Whats the procedure for testing this? I would do both of these processes, then zoom in some crazy amount in the AE viewer and see if the colors look more interlaced on the cineform footage that use to be AVCHD in PPro?



- Shawn

 

[shawn.w]

Also can someone link me to the discussion of this chroma bug, i cant seem to find the thread through search. thanks

 

[PDR]

Interesting, so if I were to bring a native AVCHD clip into PPro CS4 (a 1080 60i off my Panasonic hmc150), then export that from PPro as cineform, then import that into AE and try to key, i should get bad results?

Exactly! It doesn't matter if it's 60i, 24pN etc... they all give the interlaced chroma result on native AVCHD clips.

Or at least i should get much better results if i bring a cineform file into PPro, dynamic link or export that into AE and try to key it?

Yes. The take home message is not to use native AVCHD with Adobe products. If it has been decoder properly before you import (e.g. through HDlink and cineform), you will be fine

Whats the procedure for testing this? I would do both of these processes, then zoom in some crazy amount in the AE viewer and see if the colors look more interlaced on the cineform footage that use to be AVCHD in PPro?

Yes that's the basic way. You don't even need a zoom, you can see the artifacts at 100% zoom. You can use a nearest neighbor (or point resize) on an exported still as another method and it will be clearly obvious at 200-300% zoom

Also can someone link me to the discussion of this chroma bug, i cant seem to find the thread through search. thanks

Here are a couple threads:
read from about page 2 on (this was originally from Barry's chroma key smackdown):
http://96.30.23.131/showthread.php?t=195510&page=2

read from about page 4 on:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=197880&page=4

 

[shawn.w]

Thanks for all the info PDR.

Did you get my PM about my trouble with cineform?