Will this work for a makeshift wireless?

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x002657

Well-known member
I'm shooting an event where up to 2 announcers/commentators working in a booth need to be mic'ed.
I have 2 handhelds and 2 shotguns, a field mixer with 6 inputs (workd with either battery or A/C), and a wireless system with 1 plug-on module normally used for a single handheld or shotgun.

If I wire 2 handhelds or shotguns to inputs at the mixer, can I then use the plug-on module at the mixer's output to send the mixed signal to the receiver at the camera?
Camera and receiver will be about 30 feet away, but using wired is impractical for this, an outdoor event

Haven't tried this yet, for fear of damaging something, but am wondering if that arrangement will work.

Any thoughts/advice/experience with something like this setup?
 
In theory, yeah... it'll work.

In practice:

- You'll need to make sure that the mixer's outputs are set to MIC level. If you mixer cannot do this (in other words, if it's output is LINE level only), you'll have to buy an inline LINE>MIC pad.
- This also means that you're nowhere near the mixer to make adjustments if needed.
- You're mixing two mics and recording them together, which means that you'll have no control over the mix in post. What you record is what you get, period. This is not ideal at all.
- Wireless is a tricky beast. It will fail on you at some point. If there's any way to go wired, go wired.

It's not unheard of, and is quite common, to have a wireless "camera hop" from the mixer. This is done, however, in a scenario where the mixer is controlled by a human operator, and is typically also feeding a recorder by cable connection. I think you're setting yourself up for more harm than good on this one.
 
To be honest, I've done stuff like this before. It works, but there are many down falls. The two big ones are lack of control (in a one person setup) and wireless interference. The first problem is only solved by a person at the controls. The second one gives you some options. The best would be to run a wire, a 50ft XLR isn't that expensive to buy or rent. If the camera is handheld and you can't be tied down, use a cable to get the transmitter as close to you as possible (like at your feet). The reason is that between your wireless units is going to be about a hundred cell phones, and people won't turn them off. Shortening the distance will help protect against dropouts and RF interference.
 
Alex H. said:
In practice:

- You'll need to make sure that the mixer's outputs are set to MIC level. If you mixer cannot do this (in other words, if it's output is LINE level only), you'll have to buy an inline LINE>MIC pad.
- This also means that you're nowhere near the mixer to make adjustments if needed.
- You're mixing two mics and recording them together, which means that you'll have no control over the mix in post. What you record is what you get, period. This is not ideal at all.
- Wireless is a tricky beast. It will fail on you at some point. If there's any way to go wired, go wired.

It's not unheard of, and is quite common, to have a wireless "camera hop" from the mixer. This is done, however, in a scenario where the mixer is controlled by a human operator, and is typically also feeding a recorder by cable connection. I think you're setting yourself up for more harm than good on this one.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I was aware of the MIC/LINE issue.
As for adjustments at the mixer, I know that's a risk. I'll have to set initial levels, then "hope for the best". Am hoping that with only 2 announcers, they're not likely to fluctuate too much, particularly because this is an off-road automobile event, i.e. cars have no mufflers/sound-dampening, so there's already lots of engine noise. (Thinking the shotguns may be best in the booth to take advantage of their off-axis rejection). The announcers are heard over a PA system, and the last time I did this event, very early on I mic'ed only one announcer with a body-pack and he forgot to turn it on until halfway through the first heat. At times, I had only crowd sounds and the PA recorded by cam 2.
Also, timecode and synch'ing aren't critical, and I also have a ZOOM that I could use as a backup.

My bigger problem is getting it all edited without it taking too long.

Wish me luck.

Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the response.

I have plenty of cable and agree it would sound better; it's more the harsh outdoor environment I'll be dealing with...both dusty AND muddy... that concerns me, and, this event runs approx. 3.5 hours, rain or shine. I've never run wired outdoors, in the rain, and not sure I have the time to plan out new contingencies for inclement weather.

I've also heard that strategic placement of a mic near a speaker of the PA system is not uncommon. I have to consider that, too.

Thanks again.
 
x002657 said:
I'll have to set initial levels, then "hope for the best".
Click to expand...

"Hope for the best" audio is the last thing to consider if this project is at all important.

x002657 said:
Am hoping that with only 2 announcers, they're not likely to fluctuate too much, particularly because this is an off-road automobile event, i.e. cars have no mufflers/sound-dampening, so there's already lots of engine noise. (Thinking the shotguns may be best in the booth to take advantage of their off-axis rejection).
Click to expand...

In an environment like that, it is absolutely crucial that someone is monitoring and operating the mixer. Seriously, an extra run of cable isn't expensive and can save you tons of headaches down the road. The other option here is to rent a couple of dynamic headset mics (like the ones used for NFL sportscasts). They'll have less pickup so they'll help minimize the background noise, plus as headsets they are placed right next to the announcers' mouths for more direct voice pickup.

x002657 said:
My bigger problem is getting it all edited without it taking too long.

Wish me luck.
Click to expand...

To be honest, luck is what you'll need when leaving your audio to chance. As for which takes more time to edit... well, you can spend a little more time mixing two mics together in post in order to get the proper balance, or you can spend lots of agonizing effort in post struggling to even out a single mix of two mics that's all over the place.
 
What about setting and forgetting the Zzoom at the mixer at 24bit with a lower recording level to ensure no clipping, as well as doing the wireless thing?
 
If there's no rain imminent or forecast, I'll be fixed atop a 3-level scaffold.

I'd forgotten all about cell phones. (Though the engine noise is so loud, and I know people will use them, I can't imagine using a cell-phone during one of the heats).
I'll actually be pretty close to the transmitter, within 40'. Though cell phones will be very near, they won't be "between" the transmitter and the receiver. My camera scaffold is within 40' of the announcers booth, and I'll be 3 levels up, nearly the same height as the booth, so maybe wired would work. My big fear then is that no one else at this event is likely to know what the wire is for, and may just decide to yank on it out of ignorance.

I'll be prepared for both wired and wireless, and hope for the best weather-wise.

Thanks. It's nice to know I was at least on a track that "could" work.
 
Setting and forgetting the Zoom would likely give me a very workable audio (maybe even better than other means). I can incorporate that into my plan pretty easily.

Though it would be very good to have them, unfortunately, this job isn't paying enough to cover costs of rental or new equipment, e.g. headsets; it's barely better than all speculative.

Your suggestions have forced me to think more, and have helped work out a more flexible and workable, plan. Sometimes I find myself "sitting too close to the screen to see the big picture".
(Pun intended).

Thanks so much.
 
So 2 talent, camera 30ft away.

Why would you put the mixer at the talent end? Am I missing something here?
Why wouldn't you mic the talent, and send that feed the 30ft to camera where you can either put a mixer in line cabled, or
direct to your camera inputs?
 
Unfortunately, major editing time in post is probably a given that is inherent to the situation you'll be working in.There probably will be a lot of cellphones, and if they're anywhere near (not necessary "between") you and your gear, they will cause a problem-- wired, wireless, unbalanced, or balanced XLR, there's really no way around the cellphone thing-- lots of nasty invasive digital hiss, clicks, pops, and incessant blooping and bleeping.Add to that your two pre-mixed mikes and no sound-person to monitor, and you will probably have lots of issues to deal with later. Multiple redundant systems (the Zoom unit, and any other extra back-up recording gear that you can borrow) will probably be a good way to go. Make sure to leave a lot of headroom for transients (unexpected loud sound-spikes) so you won't have to worry too much about clipped audio. GJ
 
just keep the levels low, but try to set it while you have announcers talking. You would be surprised how much you can increase the gain of a quietly recorded clip without adding noise. Maybe use Mid or Low gain setting. But recording in 24 bit is important for this, as it gives you more headroom to work with. And know that the Zoom XLR inputs are not line level. And of course engage the limiter. The Zoom's limiter is not so great, but it's better than clipping. Just get a nice big, freshly formatted card in there.
 
x002657 said:
...
I'd forgotten all about cell phones. (Though the engine noise is so loud, and I know people will use them, I can't imagine using a cell-phone during one of the heats).
I'll actually be pretty close to the transmitter, within 40'. Though cell phones will be very near, they won't be "between" the transmitter and the receiver. ....
Click to expand...
The problem is not people using their cell phones. Whether they're in active use or not, cell phones and Blackberrys "phone home" every few moments to tell the system where they are as long as they're powered on. These transmissions generate enough RF to interfere with some receivers.
 
My Cell phone can be heard when recording in my studio when I'm not even using wireless. I hear that sound when my phone is anywhere near my audio card or mic cable.
 
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