Will Sony put out a low budget CineAlta camera?

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shabbatai

New member
Does anyone know if Sony is planning to try to compete with the new Panisonic camera by putting out a low budget CineAlta camera, using their high end HDCAM 4:4:4 format?

Obviously the HVX200 is going to be superior in every way to the cheaper Sony HD cameras, and a lot of people (like me) will switch from Sony to Panasonic.

If I was Sony, I would be very worried about losing market share. Surely the only way that they can compete and stay in the market is to put out a cheap CineAlta camera that will outclass the HVX200. Imagine, for example, a camera that films in HDCAM, with 4:4:4 compression, that films on the XDCam's blue laser disk (23.3 GB - which is better than the P2 and has the same advantages) - for under $10,000.

That's what I would be thinking about if I was head of Sony - but has anyone heard what they might be planning or what their response to the forthcoming HVX200 is?
 
They didn't come out with a competitive response to the dvx, seems unlikely they will respond to the hvx. It should be obvious from the lack of true 24p in current low-end product line that sony doesn't care about low budget filmmakers. I stopped buying sony when they stopped including a battery charger in the basic package, how stupid is that.
 
shabbatai said:
Does anyone know if Sony is planning to try to compete with the new Panisonic camera by putting out a low budget CineAlta camera, using their high end HDCAM 4:4:4 format?
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Not a prayer, not in this world or in the world to come. HDCAM SR, the 4:4:4 format, is a 440-megabit-per-second data stream. The base price (base, without options) of an SRW5500 deck is $88,000. There's no way there'll be a low-cost version of a Z1-class camera when the tape deck alone costs over $80,000.

The only way they could possibly include HDCAM-SR at any sort of reasonable price point would be to do a P2-style solid-state recording system. And they won't; Sony has chosen XDCAM optical disc. But XDCAM is currently limited to 36mbps, and even the new XDCAM system they're proposing would max out at 72mbps, which is still about 1/6 of the data rate they'd need for HDCAM SR.

So no -- it won't happen, now nor likely ever.

If I was Sony, I would be very worried about losing market share. Surely the only way that they can compete and stay in the market is to put out a cheap CineAlta camera that will outclass the HVX200. Imagine, for example, a camera that films in HDCAM, with 4:4:4 compression, that films on the XDCam's blue laser disk (23.3 GB - which is better than the P2 and has the same advantages) - for under $10,000.
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Complete impossibility. First, XDCAM maxxes out at 36mbps. Even the new fast version will only be 72mbps. HDCAM SR 4:4:4 is 440 megabits. It's simply impossible. And XDCAM is not by any stretch of the imagination "better" than P2, as XDCAM is a standard-def only format -- it doesn't do high-def, and even when it does with the new version, it'll be limited to an MPEG-2 class of HD.

Furthermore, unless there's a major change in Sony's style of thinking, don't count on them actually competing toe-to-toe anytime soon. They only now offer a 24P option board for their DigiBeta lineup, just introduced at NAB. Of course, that option board (not the camera mind you, but just the board for the camera) costs MORE than an HVX200... loaded with two P2 cards!

The cheapest 24p camera they offer is the DSR450, at $18,000, which is only regular DV-caliber DVCAM. For $1500 more you could get an SPX800 and get DVCPRO50 (DigiBeta quality). And the SPX800/24P/DVCPRO50 is under half the cost of Sony's DigiBeta 24p camera.

That's what I would be thinking about if I was head of Sony - but has anyone heard what they might be planning or what their response to the forthcoming HVX200 is?
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Not a word. They seem to be quite content to feel that the world is happy with interlaced tape-based mega-compressed 4:2:0 HDV.

Think about it -- it's been THREE YEARS since the DVX hit the market, and Sony has YET to come up with a 24p competitor. Even Canon finally did that! Sony still hasn't.

In other words, don't hold your breath...
 
Hmm... a Sony prosumer 24p Camera? Maybe, maybe not.

However, George Lucas recently stated that he would shoot the upcoming Star Wars TV show with (I'm paraphrasing here) "Sony cameras anyone could purchase over the counter in any electronics store". I may be going out on a limb here, but alot of people thought he meant something along the lines of an FX1/Z1U. I think it will be a different camera altogether. I think it will be a prosumer 24p camera.

Lucas has had a very close relationship with Sony for years now. He has always been a big supporter of the Playstation2 since it was in development. Lucasfilm helped Sony and Panavision to develop the first HD acquisition 24p camera. I'm sure Lucas will want to capture a look similar to the films themselves, so I'd think that he'd need a more film like framerate. 60i just won't cut it. I sincerely doubt that he'll use the Cineframe24, 25 or 30 options.

The show itself wont begin shooting until late 2006 at the earliest (More likely in 2007. Lucas has stated the show wont come out until 2008). I don't recall any major big budget sci-fi/fantasy show in recent memory that was shot on video, unless it was on HD 24p.

I think George is aware of Sony's future camera plans. I think Sony does have a prosumer 24p camera in development, that they will let ol' George beta test for them on the new Star Wars TV show (Just like they did on "The Phantom Menace").

Sony may be a little slow to keep up with the competition, but it is a competitive market after all, and it would be silly to think that Sony would never come out with a 24p prosumer camera.

HDV, HDCAM, an XDCAM Variation, a new format? Who knows what the format will be, but I believe they will have something in the near future.

Has anyone noticed how cheap, fast, and small hard drives are becoming? If you could fit 60 GB in and Ipod why couldn't you fit one in a camera? The only leap to overcome there would be shock resistance.

How many major car companies don't have an SUV of some kind in their fleet?
 
"But XDCAM is currently limited to 36mbps, and even the new XDCAM system they're proposing would max out at 72mbps, which is still about 1/6 of the data rate they'd need for HDCAM SR."

Actually 72mb/s is not the minimum, they just havn't spilled the beans yet, but only make the speeds they do for todays cameras. Great thing about disk technology is all you have to do is add another laser and and you can have up to 144mb/s. Susuki from Sony has told me that you can double that number easily by doing multiple layers. It's kind of like computers where they introduce new models incrimentally. I think he said that you could have up to four layers of recoding whicn makes disk very viable for higher end fomrats but it's not a race to make tapeless formats for the high end. Tape works just fine.

And I wouldn't worry about Pansonic taking share of the high end from Sony. Sony is well entrenched as the camera of choice for filmmkaers in Hollywood and their consumer cameras sell very well. There is always room for both. And don't fear, tape is not going anywhere soon. Things like P2 are suppliments to tape, not replacements. Tape stil beats them all. Today you can record two uncompressed streams on tape making 3D very viable. Can't go anywhere near that with other formats.
 
Tibby said:
However, George Lucas recently stated that he would shoot the upcoming Star Wars TV show with (I'm paraphrasing here) "Sony cameras anyone could purchase over the counter in any electronics store". I may be going out on a limb here, but alot of people thought he meant something along the lines of an FX1/Z1U. I think it will be a different camera altogether. I think it will be a prosumer 24p camera.
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Lucas may be speaking in hyperbole. I seriously doubt anyone could have thought he was referring to the FX1/Z1 -- they're not exactly available at just any electronics store (although the FX1 is available through BestBuy.com).

Barry_Green said:
The only way they could possibly include HDCAM-SR at any sort of reasonable price point would be to do a P2-style solid-state recording system. And they won't; Sony has chosen XDCAM optical disc. . . . HDCAM SR, the 4:4:4 format, is a 440-megabit-per-second data stream. . . . XDCAM maxxes out at 36mbps. Even the new fast version will only be 72mbps. HDCAM SR 4:4:4 is 440 megabits. It's simply impossible.
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In all fairness, DVCPro HD is 100 Mbps -- only about 50% greater bandwidth. Sony could develop a 100-Mbps MPEG4 format, which would be equivalent to about a 200-Mbps MPEG2 format (MPEG4 is about twice as efficient as MPEG2), plenty enough bandwidth for 4:2:2 encoding at 1080p60. They have the Cell processor, which probably has the horsepower to do real-time MPEG4 encoding/decoding. Samsung is developing 16-GB, 32-MBps (256-Mbps) CompactFlash-based drives (and probably higher capacities). Sony recently announced third-inch 1,920 x 1,080 CMOS chips -- so they have the chip technology and may be working on half-inch versions. How cool would it be to have 1080p24 and 1080p60, and many of the speeds in between? They could even offer 42-bit, 4:4:4 output a la Reel Stream's Andromeda. Would it be technically feasible by 2006? Probably. Is it likely? No -- at least not from Sony, unless they've just been pretending to be frustratingly, stubbornly arrogant despite the criticism they've received over the lack of 24p in the Z1. The "rightness" of these criticisms has been vindicated by Panasonic's and JVC's new offerings, both of which are priced about the same as the Z1.
 
But the question was -- will they put HDCAM SR 4:4:4 HD on a consumer-priced offering. I was saying that it'll never happen, and it won't.

Now, if they were to develop an entirely new format based around H.264, maybe there's room for that to fit within the XDCAM lineup. But no, they won't be putting HDCAM SR on an XDCAM disc.
 
Lucas may be speaking in hyperbole. I seriously doubt anyone could have thought he was referring to the FX1/Z1 -- they're not exactly available at just any electronics store (although the FX1 is available through BestBuy.com).
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Hyperbole, yes, but he did mention Sony specifically. Also I doubt George does alot of shoping for prosumer/consumer style camcorders. Regardless of whether he meant the Z1 or not, he is planning on shooting the show with some sort of prosumer/consumer level camera from Sony. He's not a moron, I'm sure his comment was in the ballpark. He's not talking about an $18,000 camera. I mean really, the man has a lot of money, but I don't think he's that deluded.

Do you really think he's going to shoot it using a 60i framerate? No I don't think so. The idea here is that he would have to shoot it 24p to retain a similar filmic look that matches the films.

Hmm...lemme see here...Sony cameras...okay...film like framerate...okay...uhh wait Sony doesn't have a prosumer level camera with 24p ability!!! Yet. It seems to me George is aware of a camera coming down the pipe from Sony that we are not privy to.

He's producing a TV show, not on the same budgetary scale as the films. How does he cut costs? A cheap camera that shoots 24p HD Footage. You really think he didn't ask Sony this question the minute they decided to make a TV show?

"Hey Sony you made the cameras for my last 3 films, what have ya got for my TV show?"

As far as people thinking it I've already read similar comments on a few different boards.

Would it be technically feasible by 2006? Probably. Is it likely? No -- at least not from Sony, unless they've just been pretending to be frustratingly, stubbornly arrogant despite the criticism they've received over the lack of 24p in the Z1.
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My statement was that he would shoot the earliest in late 2006, which I stated was unlikely. Nor did I indicate that he would be using production models either. Regardless I never made any of my statements as definitive. Only opinons based on observation.

Maybe Sony's posturing on the issue of 24p is all bluster due to the fact that they arrived late to the party.

This is all just speculation here, nothing more, nothing less.

Are a few prototype cameras feasible for late 2006/early 2007. I don't see why not?

They could use the same XDCAM disc, and just use a different type of HD codec. It's just an optical disc after all. They'd just have to improve the data rate.
 
I agree with Barry. Theres no way Sony will bring out a semi-pro cinealta unit, why bother? Their marketing campaign for the F1 and Z1 was so unbelievable you'd think it was the first HDV Camera on the market. Every rental company here in the UK have anything between 10 and 20 Z1 Units and you can't hire them for love nor money. They are constantly booked out and are making a name for themselves in the rental market already. Agreed the Panasonic will blow the Z1 out the water but unfortunately the Sonys are already out there and doing the business. Panasonics problem will be trying to claw back that market, even with a superior camera. And not everyone will warm to the new P2 work format/stream, yet another hurdle for Panasonic to get over.

I don't know what the rental market is like in the USA but when sony introduced the dreaded PD150 here in the UK, pretty much every rental company invested in them and when the DVX came along I could count on 1 hand how many rental companies actually invested in the DVX, even though its a superior camera.

So as I said, there's no way Sony needs to bring out a better camera because they already have a lionshare of the market place.
 
Cinealta...no. An upgraded Z1U type camera with 24p capabilities in the next few years. I'd say thats a possibility. Do I think Sony will never make a prosumer level 24p camera? No, it's just a matter of time. Will it be something along the lines of my speculation? Maybe, who knows.
 
I Lucas is planning to shoot Star Wars on a prosumer camera, he going to need more than 4:2:0 colour sampling with all that green/blue screening work. 4:2:2 at the least.

I can see that TV show becoming like a Sunset Beach in space! Everyone loved Star Wars, but now he seems determined to devalue it completely!
 
Barry_Green said:
But the question was -- will they put HDCAM SR 4:4:4 HD on a consumer-priced offering. I was saying that it'll never happen, and it won't.

Now, if they were to develop an entirely new format based around H.264, maybe there's room for that to fit within the XDCAM lineup. But no, they won't be putting HDCAM SR on an XDCAM disc.
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Sorry -- yes, you are, of course, right about the virtual impossibility of a consumer HDCAM format. I was referring to the possibility of an H.264-derived HDCAM-like format with a lower bandwidth, which is more feasible. But, then again, even if Sony did deliver such a product, it's unlikely it would available at your local electronics store.
 
" I could count on 1 hand how many rental companies actually invested in the DVX, even though its a superior camera."

Why because it has 24p? Is that just a feature, or is that superior? Both cameras produce comprable pictures. I might go as far as to say that the PD150 is better becse it handles natural low light far better. To me that is beter, not just an extra gimmick of 24p which I could just as easily add in post. From a professional perspective (people like me that rent $50k from a rental house each year), any of the prosumer DV cameras are all the same so I really don't worry about whether it's a PD150 or a DVX100. Unless a client specifically says 24p for Dv which no one ever has, it matters little to me.
Perhaps the fact that folks like me look at the quality of all the cameras in the prosumer world as the same at the reason why the rental houses don't bother investing. Now that same question on a pro format like HDCAM or Varicam is a differnt story. Then the rental house needs to have both but for a $3k camera, sometimes it's easier to buy one to waste than to have to find a place that rents a particular camera. Did that with a four month shoot for a major retailer who wanted a camera to record every day for a time lapse. It was cheaper to buy the camera then throw it out when we were done since the heads and the exterior got destroyed being up there for so long always running.

Shooting a new series for HGTV. We need a small wide angle shot of the room from high up for a time lapse of each makeover. I'll use the PD150 for that cause it's smaller and easier to handle. And for an interview shot this week for someone else I need to buy a wide angle adapter and the cleint wants to use a DVX100 for some tabletops so it all depends I guess. But quality wise, both cameras make the same picture as I have side by side tested.
 
Hi Walter,

I perhaps used the wrong wording "Superior" in describing the cameras. What I meant was you can adjust more settings on the DVX than you can on the PD150/170 (ie. Gamma's etc) that in my book makes it a better camera.
 
I think it's safe to say that Walter's opinion is only his opinion, and is not representative of the vast majority of members of this site. And to call 24P a "gimmick that he could easily add in post" is laughable.
 
I think it's safe to say that Walter's opinion is only his opinion, and is not representative of the vast majority of members of this site. And to call 24P a "gimmick that he could easily add in post" is laughable.
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Ouch! A tad harsh Barry, but I agree with you totally
 
Harsh? I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of it. The statement is preposterous -- it's up there with Bill Gates' "nobody will ever need more than 640k of memory" and H.M. Warner's "who the hell wants to hear actors talk" (in reference to the coming of sound to the movies). It's been said before, by others -- but that doesn't make it any less preposterous.

Sorry if anyone gets offended by pointing it out, but I don't think a reasonable mod could let it stand unchallenged. 24P is the single most revolutionary development to happen to video filmmakers since the introduction of the first video camera. To dismiss it as a "gimmick" is ... well... unfathomable.
 
The fact remains that to some people it is a gimmick. Neither side is right or wrong. I happen to prefer 24/25p over interlacing, but some do not. Walter has far and away enough experience to be able to make his own call on the subject even if many might disagree with it.

But going back to the subject at hand I think many miss the point. No, Cinealta will not make it to a consumer camera. At the same time I think it is silly for people to suggest that Sony have some kind of vendetta against indie movie makers.

The fact of the matter is that although Panasonic are rivals, Sony just happen to concentrate their products at a slightly different customer base. While Panasonic have the Varicam, Sony have their ultra high end HDCAM SR F950 camera. Panasonic have their 24p prosumer camera, Sony have their PD170 which is more aimed towards VJ style journalism than indie moviemaking. Same price range, slightly different aims with the market tiers both companies are aiming for being slightly offset.

The really odd thing I find about 'indie moviemakers' is that there never really seems to be a concentration on making money. If someone is a professional and makes their living out of camerawork etc and is doing fairly well for themselves, then a lower end 2/3" camera should not be that much of a stretch, especially with the many 0% finance schemes on offer from the likes of Sony. Yet "indie moviemaker" as described a lot of the time on forums seems to describe someone who is making something with their DVX in their spare time with no intention of finding a distributor etc.

Barry, you mentioned buying one of the Panasonic 2/3" cameras for only £1500 more than a DSR450. Not sure where you have got those prices from, but here in the UK if you purchased the SPX800 body with 4 4gb cards it could cost you around UKP19k compared with UKP7k for the 450. In addition the 450 would require only a MiniDV tape in order to get going, no need for a Panasonic P2 card drive for longer shoots, and no need for additional NLE upgrades. Apples and oranges.

A better comparison would be the Panasonic SDC905, but to my knowledge although it can record DVCPro50 it cannot do progressive scan and still costs nearly UKP4k more than the 450. In fact there are many offers for the DSR450 over here including a lens for around UKP10k or less. An SPX800 will cost far, far more, especially when the lens is factored in as well. And that's assuming you can actually find an SPX800! They are like gold dust at the moment!

Lastly I wouldn't say that DVCpro50 was Digibeta quality. On intiial inspection yes. But the 8-bit vs 10-bit for Digibeta means that the DVCpro codec will not stand up to as much post production messing around as DB. I don't mean to be finnicky, but we should look at all the pros and cons.

We'll see what HD XDCAM has in store at IBC.
 
Sorry to disappoint you Barry. On some of the professional boards I belong to, just such conversations go on. Got me realizing it is a gimmick. Guess Einstein was right, it's all relative.
 
Although I think we ought to look at what a gimmick is. I look upon a gimmick as something that is not strictly neccesary, but is nice to have.

It is very true that to achieve the same result in post reduces resolution. I can also say that there is a hugely significant difference between footage that I have shot in 25PsF mode, encoded for DVD with Progressive flags, and played back on a progressive scan DVD player on a true progressive CRT (JVC HV-32P37SJEC), and displaying the same footage on a non progressive DVD and TV.

Although 24p judders, I have to say that I prefer that to interlace combing during motion. Although having said that I use 25p so maybe its different :)
 
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